Author Topic: Woke libraries  (Read 9157 times)

Ana

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Woke libraries
« on: August 24, 2022, 06:11:36 am »
While I am against book banning (even if it's hardcore porn), I think there is a difference between the ban of sales to private individuals (their money, their choice) and communities banning the purchases of certain books in libraries/schools funded by their taxes (their money, their choice).

This story by WSJ seems to frame it differently:

Quote
Voters in Jamestown Township, Mich., located about 20 miles southwest of Grand Rapids, defeated a funding measure for the Patmos Library earlier this month, stripping 85% of its funding for next year. The library, which has an annual budget of about $250,000, is in danger of closing if it can’t replace those funds, said Larry Walton, president of the library’s board.

[...] Patmos Library’s last two directors also resigned following harassment at work from people who objected to the books with LGBT themes, according to Mr. Walton.


[...] The dispute over books in Jamestown began last November when a patron asked the library to remove the graphic novel “Gender Queer: A Memoir,” Mr. Walton said. Residents began asking for other books with LGBT themes to be pulled, including the graphic novels “Spinning” and “Kiss Number 8.”

Groups of parents unhappy with the materials began coming to the library board’s monthly meetings, demanding the removal of the books, Mr. Walton said. The library declined to remove any books from circulation.

A group called Jamestown Conservatives that disagreed with the library’s decision to keep the books, organized a campaign to defund the library. The group passed out fliers stating the library has many books with LGBT content and “pornographic sexually graphic material,” according to a copy of the flier included in a packet for a library board meeting in June and viewed by The Wall Street Journal. The fliers also said the books were aimed at “very young and impressionable kids.”

I think it's perfectly reasonable for the taxpayers to defund a nonprofit that refuses to listen to their wishes. Their money, their choice.

Quote
The board of the Patmos Library, a nonprofit organization that isn’t run by the town, is working with volunteers to drum up support for a new measure on the November ballot that would restore the library’s funding.

“We are not going to give up,” Mr. Walton said. “We are going to do everything we can to try to prevent those doors from closing.” Should the measure fail, it could shutter the only library in the community.

Meaning, they'd rather close the library than remove the porn, but they want to pin it on conservatives.


If the enemy would rather burn the crops and salt the earth rather than let you take it, maybe you should let them burn the crops and salt the earth, or you'll never win.

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This ungainly fowl

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Re: Woke libraries
« Reply #1 on: August 24, 2022, 06:15:05 am »
I think it's perfectly reasonable for the taxpayers to defund a nonprofit that refuses to listen to their wishes. Their money, their choice.

I may be misremembering, but I don't recall you expressing such confidence in wisdom of voters whenever they come to a more left-aligned decision.



Meaning, they'd rather close the library than remove the porn, but they want to pin it on conservatives.

Or in other words, a bunch of conservatives would rather close down the library than let their children find out that gay people exist, and they want to pin it on the wokes.
« Last Edit: August 24, 2022, 06:22:25 am by This ungainly fowl »

Ana

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Re: Woke libraries
« Reply #2 on: August 24, 2022, 06:19:25 am »
I think it's perfectly reasonable for the taxpayers to defund a nonprofit that refuses to listen to their wishes. Their money, their choice.

I may be misremembering, but I don't recall you expressing such confidence in wisdom of voters whenever they come to a more left-aligned decision.

When have voters defunded a right-aligned nonprofit?

Because I'd be in favor.



Most of the left wing decisions seem to be more about spending more money, rather than spending less money.

And enacting laws that cost other people money.


I am in favor of left wingers cutting funding and reducing taxes, even if I think that defunding the police is stupid (and I'll argue so). But it's their cities; let them burn them to the ground.

This ungainly fowl

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Re: Woke libraries
« Reply #3 on: August 24, 2022, 06:24:27 am »
And enacting laws that cost other people money.

From what I've read, one of Florida's new laws requires schools to hire an "educational materials specialist" to personally vet (i.e. censor) all purchased and donated books. How's that for the ballooning educational bureaucracy that everyone loves to complain about?

emiliobumachar

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Re: Woke libraries
« Reply #4 on: August 24, 2022, 06:34:27 am »
There's a potentially important distinction between a ban on purchasing books with banned themes, and a requirement to get rid of those already there.

But yeah, I tend to agree with the OP. Their money, their choice.

Erusian

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Re: Woke libraries
« Reply #5 on: August 24, 2022, 07:25:56 am »
And enacting laws that cost other people money.

From what I've read, one of Florida's new laws requires schools to hire an "educational materials specialist" to personally vet (i.e. censor) all purchased and donated books. How's that for the ballooning educational bureaucracy that everyone loves to complain about?

@This ungainly fowl

I'd be very interested in hearing more about this. Fwiw, I'm completely serious about this. I don't know whether it's happening or not but I do I have some local pull in my area. If I'm paying for state censors to go through books at a library I will raise a stink. If you're afraid of raising culture war in an open thread you can DM me.

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Re: Woke libraries
« Reply #6 on: August 24, 2022, 11:22:57 am »
The book that started all this is Gender Queer, a graphic novel by Maia Kobabe (pronouns: e/em/eir), which has sparked similar controversy across the country.  The Guardian reports that in this instance the book was in the adults section.  While none of the previews I came across for the book showed the allegedly pornographic pages, but all the reviews I found of it insisted the depictions of nudity and sex were tasteful and artistically appropriate, and a very small part of what the book was about.
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mexet

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Re: Woke libraries
« Reply #7 on: August 24, 2022, 11:42:19 am »
And enacting laws that cost other people money.

From what I've read, one of Florida's new laws requires schools to hire an "educational materials specialist" to personally vet (i.e. censor) all purchased and donated books. How's that for the ballooning educational bureaucracy that everyone loves to complain about?

Are the normal purchasing decisions made by whoever the official normally responsible is for those decisions 'censoring' when they decide not to buy a book?

Because it sounds, in awful lot of these cases, like the objection isn't that this Bradburian knocking-down-people's-doors to destroy banned books, but instead it's an incumbent with the power of choice using high flying rhetoric to preserve their office's powers.

obormot

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Re: Woke libraries
« Reply #8 on: August 24, 2022, 11:44:13 am »
The book that started all this is Gender Queer, a graphic novel by Maia Kobabe (pronouns: e/em/eir), which has sparked similar controversy across the country.  The Guardian reports that in this instance the book was in the adults section.  While none of the previews I came across for the book showed the allegedly pornographic pages, but all the reviews I found of it insisted the depictions of nudity and sex were tasteful and artistically appropriate, and a very small part of what the book was about.

From the linked preview on the author’s website, it seems pretty non-pornographic, and generally positive.

On the whole, my view is that libraries should have more things rather than fewer things, and should also not be ruled entirely by what the tax-payers who fund them want said libraries to have. If libraries only had things that were approved by the majority, then they would be far less useful than they are.

Nabil ad Dajjal

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Re: Woke libraries
« Reply #9 on: August 24, 2022, 12:28:41 pm »
What is the purpose of a public library?

Most of my maternal line for two generations have been librarians, and the skills which they were trained in were focused on facilitating academic research. Basically search before search engines: knowing how to track down a primary source from a paraphrased quote using no or very primitive computers. The library "trainings" I was required to take in undergraduate and graduate school were likewise all about search and citations but now more focused on how to use search engines.

What the women in my family actually did, for the most part, was to run an impromptu homeless shelter with an internet café for perverts. Library patrons would sleep in the stacks, defecate in the books (and frequently close them afterwards: this was apparently a trend), and of course masturbate at the computers.

Since then it seems that libraries have found a new and arguably even worse reason for being. With drag queen story hours and the like, they have become a tool to openly facilitate grooming. Before they made at least a token effort to chase off the pervs exposing kids to hardcore porn but now they have been embraced.

If libraries are homeless shelters or LGBT indoctrination centers, they would be better off not existing. And if they are meant to facilitate research then we definitely don't need one in every small town: if university libraries at R1 institutions are already mostly sitting on their hands, I can't imagine that the Bumfuck Local Library branch #987 is particularly busy helping patrons properly cite Bacon or find the newest edition of Nature.
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bart_ender

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Re: Woke libraries
« Reply #10 on: August 24, 2022, 12:38:50 pm »
The libraries around here seem to be used for free day care, free movie rentals, and for homeless people to check their email. I'd be happier if they were funded through membership fees rather than tax dollars.
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Re: Woke libraries
« Reply #11 on: August 24, 2022, 12:51:38 pm »
Someone gets to decide which books are stocked and which books are promoted by the library.  In the case of a library funded by taxpayers, I don't see why this decision should be made entirely according to the political and personal beliefs of the librarian (who will invariably be a leftist).  Boot out the book-shitters and masturbators, hire a librarian (though likely not a properly credentialed one!) who will buy books with the tastes of the bulk of the patrons in mind, and avoid promoting the ones they'll really hate to their kids, and maybe there's a purpose for a community library.  Convert it into an institution to promote wokism and use residual respect for "libraries" to protect it from attack.... well, sooner or later even conservatives realize that if they've been booted from an institution, they have no reason not to shell it from the outside.

Conrad

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Re: Woke libraries
« Reply #12 on: August 24, 2022, 01:28:29 pm »
Or in other words, a bunch of conservatives would rather close down the library than let their children find out that gay people exist, and they want to pin it on the wokes.

If you want to raise your kid your to be a gay gender non-confirming xir or whatever, you are free to do so, and nobody's stopping you. But please stop trying to push that stuff on my kids.
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Randy M

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Re: Woke libraries
« Reply #13 on: August 24, 2022, 01:57:57 pm »
This is similar to a discussion here about just what it means to ban books. A year or so ago? Not finding it on a quick search.

Anyway, I think different principles are involved if a book is being pulled from a school library, public library, and bookseller. And there are different valid principles to use, but it would be useful for patrons to be aware of it. Public libraries have a wholesome image, because reading is itself an applause light when it comes to children, but that doesn't mean your local library will necessarily act in loco parentis like your elementary school librarian is presumed to do. So one reasonable set of principles is that the school library is much more selective, removing items if they get a couple of complaints, whereas the public library stocks items that anyone requests and doesn't remove them, and if you shouldn't expect to leave your kids unsupervised there.

But I'm not sure if tax payers really have an interest in funding the inevitable free adult bookstore. Perhaps "Public librarian" should be an elected position--but as discussed recently, people don't have the attention span for so many positions, and they just get captured by special interests.

And as a librarian, you can probably excuse a lot with the rationale of "budget"; library near me seems to have recently downsized their physical books dramatically.
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William Boot

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Re: Woke libraries
« Reply #14 on: August 24, 2022, 02:17:48 pm »
The book that started all this is Gender Queer, a graphic novel by Maia Kobabe (pronouns: e/em/eir), which has sparked similar controversy across the country.  The Guardian reports that in this instance the book was in the adults section.  While none of the previews I came across for the book showed the allegedly pornographic pages, but all the reviews I found of it insisted the depictions of nudity and sex were tasteful and artistically appropriate, and a very small part of what the book was about.

From the linked preview on the author’s website, it seems pretty non-pornographic, and generally positive.

On the whole, my view is that libraries should have more things rather than fewer things, and should also not be ruled entirely by what the tax-payers who fund them want said libraries to have. If libraries only had things that were approved by the majority, then they would be far less useful than they are.

Who should get to decide if not the people who created the library and fund it? Why do these more enlightened beings get to force the mouth breathers to pony up?

Orson

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Re: Woke libraries
« Reply #15 on: August 24, 2022, 02:19:42 pm »
I see nothing objectionable about this at all. The library got into a disagreement with the people funding it about what it should be doing. The library declined to change. The people declined to continue giving it their money. Sounds just fine.

I know many people are used to requirements that money be given to fund things those people strongly oppose because that's how government works, but this all seems completely typical for how nonprofits work.

EchoChaos

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Re: Woke libraries
« Reply #16 on: August 24, 2022, 02:19:59 pm »
The book that started all this is Gender Queer, a graphic novel by Maia Kobabe (pronouns: e/em/eir), which has sparked similar controversy across the country.  The Guardian reports that in this instance the book was in the adults section.  While none of the previews I came across for the book showed the allegedly pornographic pages, but all the reviews I found of it insisted the depictions of nudity and sex were tasteful and artistically appropriate, and a very small part of what the book was about.

From the linked preview on the author’s website, it seems pretty non-pornographic, and generally positive.

On the whole, my view is that libraries should have more things rather than fewer things, and should also not be ruled entirely by what the tax-payers who fund them want said libraries to have. If libraries only had things that were approved by the majority, then they would be far less useful than they are.

Who should get to decide if not the people who created the library and fund it? Why do these more enlightened beings get to force the mouth breathers to pony up?

And by a shocking coincidence, all their biases outside the mainstream are left-wing.

TenaciousD.

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Re: Woke libraries
« Reply #17 on: August 24, 2022, 02:32:11 pm »
There was an essay in Quillette earlier this year written by a newly-retired librarian as a career retrospective on how his profession changed into much more of a monolithic, activist-aligned milieu. He contrasts the free-speech-absolutist position on people watching porn in libraries with the willingness to exclude trans-sceptical perspectives (e.g. Megan Murphy, Abigail Shrier).
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Kay

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Re: Woke libraries
« Reply #18 on: August 24, 2022, 02:44:02 pm »
The book that started all this is Gender Queer, a graphic novel by Maia Kobabe (pronouns: e/em/eir), which has sparked similar controversy across the country.  The Guardian reports that in this instance the book was in the adults section.  While none of the previews I came across for the book showed the allegedly pornographic pages, but all the reviews I found of it insisted the depictions of nudity and sex were tasteful and artistically appropriate, and a very small part of what the book was about.

From the linked preview on the author’s website, it seems pretty non-pornographic, and generally positive.

On the whole, my view is that libraries should have more things rather than fewer things, and should also not be ruled entirely by what the tax-payers who fund them want said libraries to have. If libraries only had things that were approved by the majority, then they would be far less useful than they are.

Who should get to decide if not the people who created the library and fund it? Why do these more enlightened beings get to force the mouth breathers to pony up?

Sur. But there is a difference between "the people who fund it" and "a numerical majority amongst the people who fund it" or "a vocal minority of the people who fund it". Should the woke minority in a conservative town have to pony up for a library that only has conservative books?

Democracy is not the same thing as dictatorship of the majority.

It is why one usually sets up a library as an independent institution, with a budget, and with librarians that can be, well, librarian. And if that library allows kids to learn things their parents don't want them to learn then this is a feature, not a bug.

(Note, when I was a first year student I stayed in a dorm that was run by the Jesuits. It had its own library. The library did have porn. And lots of comics. I was mostly interested in the comics.)

And lastly we should educate whoever wants to stir up a storm over a book about the Streisand effect. I had never heard about "Gender Queer", but now I am interested...

Conrad

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Re: Woke libraries
« Reply #19 on: August 24, 2022, 02:50:01 pm »
And if that library allows kids to learn things their parents don't want them to learn then this is a feature, not a bug.

Who exactly do you think you are deciding what things somebody else's kid should learn?

How about we stock the library with white supremacist recruiting pamphlets? If the librarians are handing those out to the kids against the parents' wishes, that's a feature, not a bug, right?
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EchoChaos

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Re: Woke libraries
« Reply #20 on: August 24, 2022, 02:51:27 pm »
Democracy is not the same thing as dictatorship of the majority.

You have a different definition of democracy than I do, then.

Orson

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Re: Woke libraries
« Reply #21 on: August 24, 2022, 02:52:19 pm »
And if that library allows kids to learn things their parents don't want them to learn then this is a feature, not a bug.

Who exactly do you think you are deciding what things somebody else's kid should learn?

How about we stock the library with white supremacist recruiting pamphlets? If the librarians are handing those out to the kids against the parents' wishes, that's a feature, not a bug, right?
No, see, it's even better. Because if the parents decide they don't want to fund an organization that explicitly is trying to hand children materials that their parents have expressly disagreed with, then it's the parents who are the bad guys! You don't just have to let other people teach your kids things you disagree with; you have to fund them!

I can see why this particular pitch failed to convince the voters. Better luck next time.

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Re: Woke libraries
« Reply #22 on: August 24, 2022, 02:54:06 pm »
Should the woke minority in a conservative town have to pony up for a library that only has conservative books?

The town in question just voted to stop funding the library at all, so apparently not.
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William Boot

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Re: Woke libraries
« Reply #23 on: August 24, 2022, 03:01:38 pm »
Sur. But there is a difference between "the people who fund it" and "a numerical majority amongst the people who fund it" or "a vocal minority of the people who fund it". Should the woke minority in a conservative town have to pony up for a library that only has conservative books?

Democracy is not the same thing as dictatorship of the majority.

1. It won't have only conservative books. It just won't have this particular liberal book. It will have others and, of course, the overwhelming majority of books are neither liberal nor conservative.

2. Even after this, the library will certainly have more liberal books than conservative books because the people who select the books on a day to day basis are almost certainly liberal, so fears of a dictatorship of a conservative majority are misplaced.

3. Unless the library has all the good books that no one objects to, these issues shouldn't come up. If you can choose among a liberal book that 55 percent of taxpayers will hate, a conservative book that 45 percent of taxpayers will hate, and a non-CW book that no one will hate, you should choose the latter.

4. Democracy is a dictatorship of the majority. Most western governments are not dictatorships of the majority specifically because they limit democracy.

Randy M

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Re: Woke libraries
« Reply #24 on: August 24, 2022, 03:04:23 pm »
Quote
Unless the library has all the good books that no one objects to, these issues shouldn't come up. If you can choose among a liberal book that 55 percent of taxpayers will hate, a conservative book that 45 percent of taxpayers will hate, and a non-CW book that no one will hate, you should choose the latter.
This is one principle. Another principle is "Libraries should be places that forbidden knowledge can be found."

Of course, people who claim to hold that latter principle often don't always hold to it when the subjects change, as the article linked by TenaciousD shows.
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Purplehermann

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Re: Woke libraries
« Reply #25 on: August 24, 2022, 03:04:45 pm »
The people who are finding it should have the right,  but it's sad.
Growing up, libraries were these wonderful places that you could sit and read comfortably and quietly.  It felt safe and cozy and had a tinge of adventure.

This isn't to say no library should ever shut down, but hearing about libraries shutting down should make everybody think about how to do better in the future.

On what a library should stock, I think it makes sense to have hardcore racist books along with gay romance and pretty much everything else. Best to keep the contentious stuff off the kids' shelves though,  just leave the wholesome goodness and adventure.

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Re: Woke libraries
« Reply #26 on: August 24, 2022, 03:05:16 pm »
And enacting laws that cost other people money.

From what I've read, one of Florida's new laws requires schools to hire an "educational materials specialist" to personally vet (i.e. censor) all purchased and donated books. How's that for the ballooning educational bureaucracy that everyone loves to complain about?

For each inquisitor educational materials specialist that is hired, just fire one diversity officer. Or three.

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Re: Woke libraries
« Reply #27 on: August 24, 2022, 03:14:44 pm »
What is the purpose of a public library?
...

Most of my maternal line for two generations have been librarians, and the skills which they were trained in were focused on facilitating academic research. Basically search before search engines: knowing how to track down a primary source from a paraphrased quote using no or very primitive computers. The library "trainings" I was required to take in undergraduate and graduate school were likewise all about search and citations but now more focused on how to use search engines.

What the women in my family actually did, for the most part, was to run an impromptu homeless shelter with an internet café for perverts. Library patrons would sleep in the stacks, defecate in the books (and frequently close them afterwards: this was apparently a trend), and of course masturbate at the computers.

Since then it seems that libraries have found a new and arguably even worse reason for being. With drag queen story hours and the like, they have become a tool to openly facilitate grooming. Before they made at least a token effort to chase off the pervs exposing kids to hardcore porn but now they have been embraced.

If libraries are homeless shelters or LGBT indoctrination centers, they would be better off not existing. And if they are meant to facilitate research then we definitely don't need one in every small town: if university libraries at R1 institutions are already mostly sitting on their hands, I can't imagine that the Bumfuck Local Library branch #987 is particularly busy helping patrons properly cite Bacon or find the newest edition of Nature.
This doesn't strike me as a particularly informed depiction, and it's certainly not a charitable one. Of course, there are normies using libraries, and they generally outnumber the miscreants. I'm fortunate enough to be able to buy any book I want (though this wasn't always the case), some aren't in this position. In addition to the outre content, the libraries have new titles that some wouldn't want to spring $27 for.


Somewhat on-topic, there was a recent story about one of these committee-for-proper-thinking types in Texas who homeschools her kids, but decided to take on school libraries anyway. Her son shared some information about his upbringing:
Quote
But in a conservative Christian home, some content was off-limits.

Although the Brown family’s bookshelves were lined with classics, such as books from C.S. Lewis’ “Chronicles of Narnia” series, many popular titles were forbidden, Weston said. That included the Harry Potter series, which he said his mother, like many other conservative Christians, regarded as a satanic depiction of witchcraft.

Weston, the eldest child, said his mother also did her best to shield him and his siblings from words or images that might stir sexual curiosity. 
This didn't produce the desired effect: he turned out gay, as he was going to no matter what he read.


(a) The book-burners are making the dumb dumber, and I'm against that in principle, however: 
(b) given the public outcry, the library officials should have at least cordoned this content off from minors. Their strategy here was counterproductive, and not a hill to die on.   


Lumifer

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Re: Woke libraries
« Reply #28 on: August 24, 2022, 03:26:13 pm »
A question for people with kids, say, between the ages of 6 and 16.

Did your kids ever go to a library on their own volition (not part of a school trip and not you just bringing them there)? Did they ever express a desire to go and spend time in a library?

John Schilling

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Re: Woke libraries
« Reply #29 on: August 24, 2022, 03:28:41 pm »
If you are a legislator trying to write a law saying that those woke librarians aren't allowed to put woke books on the library shelf, or an activist petitioning your legislators to do same, be advised that you will screw this up badly.  Because at some point, you're going to have to define "woke books" in a legally rigorous fashion.  And you'll have your own librarians, the authors of all the "woke" books, and an awful lot of non-woke book authors, working against you on this.  Your list of officially banned books, or even worse the list of banned books your librarians insist you made them come up with, will include false positives that make you look like a book-burning Nazi (and you'll likely as not have overzealous supporters posting their literal book-burning parties on social media), and whatever woke agenda you're trying to suppress, they'll slip through with titles that aren't on your list.

You have the right to try this, you just really shouldn't.  Strategies that might work include A: hiring a better class of librarian, and B: trusting that 98% of K-12 students aren't going to be hanging out in the library reading those books anyway.

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Re: Woke libraries
« Reply #30 on: August 24, 2022, 03:30:42 pm »
A question for people with kids, say, between the ages of 6 and 16.

Did your kids ever go to a library on their own volition (not part of a school trip and not you just bringing them there)? Did they ever express a desire to go and spend time in a library?

Go "spend time"? No. Go find new books? Yes.
First we have to argue incessantly over semantics.

The Nybbler

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Re: Woke libraries
« Reply #31 on: August 24, 2022, 03:31:58 pm »
This isn't to say no library should ever shut down, but hearing about libraries shutting down should make everybody think about how to do better in the future.

Essentially nobody with the power to "do better" wants to.  Those who can implement detailed policy want the LGBT childrens books and they want them promoted, and they want conservative perspectives kept out or at least buried.  Those who don't want that have only blunt instruments.

ETA: The "better class of librarian" doesn't exist; the profession is thoroughly captured.  And if the library is going to be useless to 98% and harmful to 2%, might as well not have it.
« Last Edit: August 24, 2022, 03:39:39 pm by The Nybbler »

Nabil ad Dajjal

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Re: Woke libraries
« Reply #32 on: August 24, 2022, 03:32:26 pm »
What is the purpose of a public library?

Most of my maternal line for two generations have been librarians, and the skills which they were trained in were focused on facilitating academic research. Basically search before search engines: knowing how to track down a primary source from a paraphrased quote using no or very primitive computers. The library "trainings" I was required to take in undergraduate and graduate school were likewise all about search and citations but now more focused on how to use search engines.

What the women in my family actually did, for the most part, was to run an impromptu homeless shelter with an internet café for perverts. Library patrons would sleep in the stacks, defecate in the books (and frequently close them afterwards: this was apparently a trend), and of course masturbate at the computers.

Since then it seems that libraries have found a new and arguably even worse reason for being. With drag queen story hours and the like, they have become a tool to openly facilitate grooming. Before they made at least a token effort to chase off the pervs exposing kids to hardcore porn but now they have been embraced.

If libraries are homeless shelters or LGBT indoctrination centers, they would be better off not existing. And if they are meant to facilitate research then we definitely don't need one in every small town: if university libraries at R1 institutions are already mostly sitting on their hands, I can't imagine that the Bumfuck Local Library branch #987 is particularly busy helping patrons properly cite Bacon or find the newest edition of Nature.
This doesn't strike me as a particularly informed depiction, and it's certainly not a charitable one. Of course, there are normies using libraries, and they generally outnumber the miscreants. I'm fortunate enough to be able to buy any book I want (though this wasn't always the case), some aren't in this position. In addition to the outre content, the libraries have new titles that some wouldn't want to spring $27 for.

So in your view, what is the purpose of public libraries?

You indicate the value is mostly in getting free copies of new titles, presumably novels, for their personal entertainment. If that's the case, why do you think it's a worthwhile use of taxpayer money?

This didn't produce the desired effect: he turned out gay, as he was going to no matter what he read.

Do we in fact know this is the case? The explosive growth of LGBT identities among Millennials and Zoomers indicates otherwise: unless we're positing that something in the water is turning kids gay, it's an empirical fact that most of these kids would have grown up and live their lives as straight men and women in a culture merely as conservative as 1980s America.
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EchoChaos

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Re: Woke libraries
« Reply #33 on: August 24, 2022, 03:33:04 pm »
A question for people with kids, say, between the ages of 6 and 16.

Did your kids ever go to a library on their own volition (not part of a school trip and not you just bringing them there)? Did they ever express a desire to go and spend time in a library?

My kids are too young to go on their own, although my oldest is pretty close, so they only go when we bring them, but they absolutely express a desire to go.  Unfortunately our library is starting to get seriously overrun with homeless and perverts, so we can't leave the kids there or spend a lot of time just enjoying it.

As a kid who spent hours in libraries when I was a boy, this makes me saddened and angry.

If you are a legislator trying to write a law saying that those woke librarians aren't allowed to put woke books on the library shelf, or an activist petitioning your legislators to do same, be advised that you will screw this up badly.  Because at some point, you're going to have to define "woke books" in a legally rigorous fashion.  And you'll have your own librarians, the authors of all the "woke" books, and an awful lot of non-woke book authors, working against you on this.  Your list of officially banned books, or even worse the list of banned books your librarians insist you made them come up with, will include false positives that make you look like a book-burning Nazi (and you'll likely as not have overzealous supporters posting their literal book-burning parties on social media), and whatever woke agenda you're trying to suppress, they'll slip through with titles that aren't on your list.

You have the right to try this, you just really shouldn't.  Strategies that might work include A: hiring a better class of librarian, and B: trusting that 98% of K-12 students aren't going to be hanging out in the library reading those books anyway.

I actually wholeheartedly agree with this, which is why the town's solution was just to shut the place down rather than fight the losing game on definitions.

Building our own institutional pipelines is also important, which is why ceding the universities to the left decades ago was so destructive to us.

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Re: Woke libraries
« Reply #34 on: August 24, 2022, 03:38:13 pm »
A question for people with kids, say, between the ages of 6 and 16.

Did your kids ever go to a library on their own volition (not part of a school trip and not you just bringing them there)? Did they ever express a desire to go and spend time in a library?

Yes my kids go of their own volition. They spend time there, and they find books there and bring them back.

I also go for the same reason. I can afford to buy the books on Amazon but the librarian recommendations are consistently better than Amazon’s recommendations. Also my local public library is lovely.

As a kid I spent a significant fraction of my life in libraries (usually the school library). That’s how I discovered Tolkien for one (again, librarian recommendation).

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Re: Woke libraries
« Reply #35 on: August 24, 2022, 03:38:49 pm »
A question for people with kids, say, between the ages of 6 and 16.

Did your kids ever go to a library on their own volition (not part of a school trip and not you just bringing them there)? Did they ever express a desire to go and spend time in a library?
Yes. Though we're just a bit far for them to have gone on their own.
But we've used libraries regularly.

Obviously the last few years were different.
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Re: Woke libraries
« Reply #36 on: August 24, 2022, 03:39:15 pm »
If you are a legislator trying to write a law saying that those woke librarians aren't allowed to put woke books on the library shelf, or an activist petitioning your legislators to do same, be advised that you will screw this up badly.  Because at some point, you're going to have to define "woke books" in a legally rigorous fashion.  And you'll have your own librarians, the authors of all the "woke" books, and an awful lot of non-woke book authors, working against you on this.  Your list of officially banned books, or even worse the list of banned books your librarians insist you made them come up with, will include false positives that make you look like a book-burning Nazi (and you'll likely as not have overzealous supporters posting their literal book-burning parties on social media), and whatever woke agenda you're trying to suppress, they'll slip through with titles that aren't on your list.

You have the right to try this, you just really shouldn't.  Strategies that might work include A: hiring a better class of librarian, and B: trusting that 98% of K-12 students aren't going to be hanging out in the library reading those books anyway.
To be clear, your suggestions to parents are (1) try to change who is hired at a nonprofit that is sufficiently hostile to them that it's willing to lose 95% of its funding instead of accede to their requests or (2) just lose quietly.


There's no scenario in which the parents can't convince the library to remove the disfavored materials but can get new librarians and/or board members in place to advance the same goal. That's not even remotely feasible for any number of obvious process based reasons.

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Re: Woke libraries
« Reply #37 on: August 24, 2022, 03:49:30 pm »
If you are a legislator trying to write a law saying that those woke librarians aren't allowed to put woke books on the library shelf, or an activist petitioning your legislators to do same, be advised that you will screw this up badly.  Because at some point, you're going to have to define "woke books" in a legally rigorous fashion.  And you'll have your own librarians, the authors of all the "woke" books, and an awful lot of non-woke book authors, working against you on this.  Your list of officially banned books, or even worse the list of banned books your librarians insist you made them come up with, will include false positives that make you look like a book-burning Nazi (and you'll likely as not have overzealous supporters posting their literal book-burning parties on social media), and whatever woke agenda you're trying to suppress, they'll slip through with titles that aren't on your list.

You have the right to try this, you just really shouldn't.  Strategies that might work include A: hiring a better class of librarian, and B: trusting that 98% of K-12 students aren't going to be hanging out in the library reading those books anyway.
To be clear, your suggestions to parents are (1) try to change who is hired at a nonprofit that is sufficiently hostile to them that it's willing to lose 95% of its funding instead of accede to their requests or (2) just lose quietly.


There's no scenario in which the parents can't convince the library to remove the disfavored materials but can get new librarians and/or board members in place to advance the same goal. That's not even remotely feasible for any number of obvious process based reasons.

In this specific case, the town can easily (with additional cost) decide to fund a new library, and form a committee of parents stakeholders to create a board and a hiring committee. Second time around, I'm sure they'll understand a better incentive structure for the new library to actually serve the needs of the funders. Step one is probably not hiring a credentialed librarian, unfortunately, unless they are an older one. There may be a book sale and a used library building for sale in the town in the near future, I hear...

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Re: Woke libraries
« Reply #38 on: August 24, 2022, 03:52:01 pm »
...

(a) The book-burners are making the dumb dumber, and I'm against that in principle, however: 
(b) given the public outcry, the library officials should have at least cordoned this content off from minors. Their strategy here was counterproductive, and not a hill to die on.   

It's common for people to talk about some book being banned when what's actually happening is a different decision, like:

a. A publisher decides not to publish the book.
b. A bookseller decides not to sell it.
c. A library decides not to offer it for borrowing.
d. A school library decides not to offer it for borrowing.
e. A school decides not to assign it as reading to students.

All five of these are routinely called "banning" the book.  a-d also make it more difficult for people to encounter or read the book.  But none of them are banning or burning any books.  In fact, all of them are decisions that are 100% standard things those people/organizations do, and indeed, *have* to do, all the time.  The question in each case is whether their reasons were sensible, and maybe whether their position in the world justifies some kind of political/judicial override of their decision.  It's quite difficult to ban a book in the US, though you can make it difficult to get.  But as an example, I'm pretty sure you can order a copy of _The Turner Diaries_ online if that's your thing. 

The complaint w.r.t. a library deciding to carry books or not carry that offend lots of people in the community is about how the librarians are exercising the choice they are expected to exercise.  There is a large set of people who don't simply want to not read stuff that offends them or that they think is socially damaging or morally wrong, or even to have their children not exposed to stuff that offends them, but rather to demand that nobody be offered stuff that offends them/is socially damaging/is morally wrong.  This is very common on both right and left, but is very often described quite differently in media reports on the issue, due to the median politics of people working in media and as librarians vs the rest of the public.  But the job of the librarians is partly to decide which books to stock, and while I'd prefer those decisions to be made in a more-or-less ideologically neutral way, my impression is that this is not the way most librarians see the matter, and certainly not the way most of the community sees the matter. 

If my local library decides to remove a book due to public protest, that seems bad, but it seems equally bad whether it's _Gender Queer_ or _Irreversible Damage_

[eta]

This is even more the case when we're talking about "banning" books from public school libraries or classroom assignment.  99% of the people who are up in arms about some public school "banning" (no longer assigning) _Maus_ would be even more up in arms about some public school assigning _Camp of the Saints_ as required reading.  We all kind-of pretend it's about principle, and for some people it is (I don't like having Mrs Grundy get organized and dumb down the library anymore than John does), but it's also about demanding that institutions help me impose my values on the community. 
 
« Last Edit: August 24, 2022, 03:59:29 pm by albatross11 »
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The Nybbler

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Re: Woke libraries
« Reply #39 on: August 24, 2022, 03:57:44 pm »
In this specific case, the town can easily (with additional cost) decide to fund a new library, and form a committee of parents stakeholders to create a board and a hiring committee. Second time around, I'm sure they'll understand a better incentive structure for the new library to actually serve the needs of the funders.

Probably not.  Because

1) They'd have to be redpilled enough to realize the institutions they'd like to rely on are corrupted and will not serve those needs and

2) Not actually blackpilled so they realize that anything they build will be corrupted and

3) The blackpill view must be wrong.

If they don't meet 2, they don't bother.  If they don't meet 1, their new library will be corrupted on day 1.  If 3 is true, they'll fail despite their best efforts -- either they won't be able to build anything or it will be corrupted.

Orson

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Re: Woke libraries
« Reply #40 on: August 24, 2022, 03:59:27 pm »
In this specific case, the town can easily (with additional cost) decide to fund a new library, and form a committee of parents stakeholders to create a board and a hiring committee. Second time around, I'm sure they'll understand a better incentive structure for the new library to actually serve the needs of the funders.

Probably not.  Because

1) They'd have to be redpilled enough to realize the institutions they'd like to rely on are corrupted and will not serve those needs and

2) Not actually blackpilled so they realize that anything they build will be corrupted and

3) The blackpill view must be wrong.

If they don't meet 2, they don't bother.  If they don't meet 1, their new library will be corrupted on day 1.  If 3 is true, they'll fail despite their best efforts -- either they won't be able to build anything or it will be corrupted.
I don't always buy the blackpill view, but I do suspect that it's going to be pretty tough to find a librarian who won't be at minimum fairly far left. It seems to be the reality of the field (not saying there aren't some exceptions somewhere, but it's quite rare). My presumption is that it would be sort of like the challenge of finding a conservative social worker.


Plus, hiring someone who isn't a "qualified librarian" is at most a temporary holding measure. Even if that works in the interim, give it a couple years and someone will have the bright idea to hire someone with formal librarian training, and it will be hard to push back on. The incentives are such that it's harder for the parents to maintain any victory here than it will be for outsiders to chip away at it, assuming sufficient background disparity in the leaning of librarians.

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Re: Woke libraries
« Reply #41 on: August 24, 2022, 04:03:35 pm »
A question for people with kids, say, between the ages of 6 and 16.

Did your kids ever go to a library on their own volition (not part of a school trip and not you just bringing them there)? Did they ever express a desire to go and spend time in a library?

They want to go there on occasion to get books, but not to hang out there or anything. It's too far for them to go on their own. I think when they're a little older they'll go for weekend chess lessons there.

When they were younger sometimes their nanny would take them to story hour there and it seemed like a good social experience.

We never encountered any problems with undesirable elements, including when we lived in the city in a neighborhood that had homeless people on streets a couple blocks from the library.


I do suspect that it's going to be pretty tough to find a librarian who won't be at minimum fairly far left.

Also, books are mostly written by lefties, so even if the books are chosen completely at random you'll end up with more left-oriented content than right-oriented content (though of course the majority will be fairly non-ideological).

John Schilling

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Re: Woke libraries
« Reply #42 on: August 24, 2022, 04:07:14 pm »
If you are a legislator trying to write a law saying that those woke librarians aren't allowed to put woke books on the library shelf, or an activist petitioning your legislators to do same, be advised that you will screw this up badly.  Because at some point, you're going to have to define "woke books" in a legally rigorous fashion.  And you'll have your own librarians, the authors of all the "woke" books, and an awful lot of non-woke book authors, working against you on this.  Your list of officially banned books, or even worse the list of banned books your librarians insist you made them come up with, will include false positives that make you look like a book-burning Nazi (and you'll likely as not have overzealous supporters posting their literal book-burning parties on social media), and whatever woke agenda you're trying to suppress, they'll slip through with titles that aren't on your list.

You have the right to try this, you just really shouldn't.  Strategies that might work include A: hiring a better class of librarian, and B: trusting that 98% of K-12 students aren't going to be hanging out in the library reading those books anyway.
To be clear, your suggestions to parents are (1) try to change who is hired at a nonprofit that is sufficiently hostile to them that it's willing to lose 95% of its funding instead of accede to their requests or (2) just lose quietly.

Either of those is superior to losing in a loudly embarrassing fashion.  Cut your losses and try something else.  Or we'll all mock you when you keep stupidly embarrassing yourselves while accomplishing nothing.

albatross11

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Re: Woke libraries
« Reply #43 on: August 24, 2022, 04:08:27 pm »
There's a federalism/localism issue here that's hard to quite nail down.  Librarians and statewide school bureaucrats often have very different political and social and religious values than people living in some community.  If the librarians and school bureaucrats get to make collective decisions on behalf of the community, there's going to be some tension that ultimately comes down to what values should be upheld by the community's institutions. 

If the community is up in arms about some book being in the public library that offends them or seems terrible to them, I think we should have the same principles for deciding how to do that when the book is _The Bell Curve_ or _Irreversible Damage_ as when it is _The God Delusion_ or _White Fragility_, and we should discuss the matter in the same way in both cases. 
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geoduck

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Re: Woke libraries
« Reply #44 on: August 24, 2022, 04:13:42 pm »
The libraries around here seem to be used for free day care, free movie rentals, and for homeless people to check their email.
You make that last sound like a bad thing. But I'd argue that it fits the library's purpose of making information available to the community, regardless of class or means, and is a constructive and admirable alternative to wanking and defecating. Although my own experiences with junkies and the mentally ill have left me jaded and hard-hearted, there is no individual I would begrudge an opportunity for self-betterment. An increasing number of such opportunities are tightly coupled to the ability to check email.

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Re: Woke libraries
« Reply #45 on: August 24, 2022, 04:14:16 pm »
(a) The book-burners are making the dumb dumber, and I'm against that in principle, however: 
(b) given the public outcry, the library officials should have at least cordoned this content off from minors. Their strategy here was counterproductive, and not a hill to die on.   
Please note:

The Guardian reports that in this instance the book was in the adults section.
Quote from: The Guardian
Though the library put Kobabe’s book behind the counter rather than on the shelves, the volumes remained available.
I've never understood the purity impulse that says, "This probable sick filth must be kept from me and anyone else, so we can continue to know nothing about it." I certainly don't respect it at all. But I'm relieved to see that it's not confined to the left.

Orson

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Re: Woke libraries
« Reply #46 on: August 24, 2022, 04:16:25 pm »
If you are a legislator trying to write a law saying that those woke librarians aren't allowed to put woke books on the library shelf, or an activist petitioning your legislators to do same, be advised that you will screw this up badly.  Because at some point, you're going to have to define "woke books" in a legally rigorous fashion.  And you'll have your own librarians, the authors of all the "woke" books, and an awful lot of non-woke book authors, working against you on this.  Your list of officially banned books, or even worse the list of banned books your librarians insist you made them come up with, will include false positives that make you look like a book-burning Nazi (and you'll likely as not have overzealous supporters posting their literal book-burning parties on social media), and whatever woke agenda you're trying to suppress, they'll slip through with titles that aren't on your list.

You have the right to try this, you just really shouldn't.  Strategies that might work include A: hiring a better class of librarian, and B: trusting that 98% of K-12 students aren't going to be hanging out in the library reading those books anyway.
To be clear, your suggestions to parents are (1) try to change who is hired at a nonprofit that is sufficiently hostile to them that it's willing to lose 95% of its funding instead of accede to their requests or (2) just lose quietly.

Either of those is superior to losing in a loudly embarrassing fashion.  Cut your losses and try something else.  Or we'll all mock you when you keep stupidly embarrassing yourselves while accomplishing nothing.
It's not clear to me that it's the parents losing rather than the library, but I haven't dug into the story closely. If the end result is that the library survives by obtaining outside funding, I'm still not sure that's really losing for those particular people who don't have to pay for the library any more. And I expect that some other librarians in other rural counties are watching closely and reconsidering how confrontational they want to be toward the people who ultimately fund their paychecks, which also doesn't seem like losing.


EDIT: if "losing in a loudly embarrassing fashion" just means that news entities write stories deriding you, then that's a fully general argument against virtually all conservative actions. For obvious reasons, I don't expect that to be persuasive, nor do I think it should be.

David W

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Re: Woke libraries
« Reply #47 on: August 24, 2022, 04:22:02 pm »
It's common for people to talk about some book being banned when what's actually happening is a different decision, like:

a. A publisher decides not to publish the book.

Except when the publisher first buys the copyright.  The old Dr. Seuss books and Song of the South really are partially banned; you can pass around the old copies but anyone caught making more (or even replacements for the ones worn out) will get in legal trouble.
According to Wikipedia (the three most trusted words in information!)

AW109

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Re: Woke libraries
« Reply #48 on: August 24, 2022, 04:27:25 pm »
A question for people with kids, say, between the ages of 6 and 16.

Did your kids ever go to a library on their own volition (not part of a school trip and not you just bringing them there)? Did they ever express a desire to go and spend time in a library?

My seven-year-old loves going to the library, and asks about it a few times a week.  She tends to get distracted by the colourful easy-reader fairy-tales etc., so it's easy to steer her to 'safe' things.  (The boys like the library, too, but they're under that age range and can't read.)  We don't go to the library all June because we're not ready to discuss the special displays.

I find library-visits stressful because most of the children's fiction is junk.  Especially picture-books, which almost all fall into three (often overlapping) categories:

1.  silly or too-cute stories.  A fairy who's learning to share, a dragon with flatulence.  Kids like them but they're a drag to read aloud and feel low on artistic effort.  Lots of talking animals, which aren't inherently bad but get tiresome.

2.  Serious Subject (TM) stories.  'My dad is in prison', 'my grandma keeps forgetting things', 'my hair is kinky', 'my brother has autism', 'I'm going to a new school'.  Maybe these are helpful if (say) your kids' dad really is in prison, but otherwise they're just kind of boring.

3.  propaganda.  Last time we went to a library, I flipped through a book that went something like this.  'Ivy's inviting all her friends to her birthday party.  She invites Jaxon, who lives next door.  Jaxon has two dads, Steve and David.  Steve [pictured as black] likes to play the guitar.  David wears something on his head called a yarmulke.  Ivy invites Catherine to her party, too!  Catherine is in a wheelchair ...'  Those names are made-up, but I'm not exaggerating with the diversity-points-to-story ratio!  And the pictures aren't anywhere near good enough to make up for the text.

This is in the UK, but as far as I remember from visits, US libraries are similar.  And these books aren't just being added to the mix -- the really good, slightly older children's books seem to be disappearing.

(ETA: this thread is getting too long for me to follow closely, @ me for a response.)
« Last Edit: August 24, 2022, 09:33:23 pm by AW109 »
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Re: Woke libraries
« Reply #49 on: August 24, 2022, 04:33:40 pm »
So in your view, what is the purpose of public libraries?
Communal sharing of content. 
Quote
You indicate the value is mostly in getting free copies of new titles, presumably novels, for their personal entertainment.
It's been a while since I've been in a library, not sure what digital/traditional media they're offering besides books (at one point though, I borrowed DVD's of "I, Claudius" which were hard to find elsewhere), but there's likely to be some. There was a wide array of magazines there as well, back in the day. 
Quote
If that's the case, why do you think it's a worthwhile use of taxpayer money?
It may seem circular, but in some sense, it's "worthwhile" if it's funded. By that I mean the community made the decision that it's worthwhile, and that's how these things are settled.  My personal take is that it contributes to greater literacy and a more informed public, and that's a worthwhile end.

Quote
Do we in fact know this is the case? The explosive growth of LGBT identities among Millennials and Zoomers indicates otherwise: unless we're positing that something in the water is turning kids gay, it's an empirical fact that most of these kids would have grown up and live their lives as straight men and women in a culture merely as conservative as 1980s America.
There is a [0, 6] scale for homosexuality (Kinsey).  My prior is that if there is a 'true' frequency distribution over it, that hasn't changed over time. But the removal of taboos has meant something different for identification.  Would say:

(1) The [2, 4] crowd in particular is probably bigger than thought in the 80's. I've always been suspicious of people who say "homosexuality is a lifestyle choice", since some of the nonsense I've put up with from various women, just for the sake of sleeping with them, indicates there's something more animal at the core.  But maybe the aforementioned ("lifestylers") are in this bucket, close to the left endpoint. 
(2) Some of the (4, 6] might have lived their lives as straight men or women until their kids were grown, then proceeded to divorce as soon as said children were out of the house. This happens a fair bit. The performative period didn't make them less gay.
(3) I've read anecdotal accounts of some Zoomers identifying as LGB, but not actually banging/whatever intra-gender. They're just signaling for +1's.
(4) The details in the article were part of my inevitability implication. The guy described his emergent awareness of his orientation, and seemed to be gay the whole way.  I think that's the norm for these cases.   
« Last Edit: August 24, 2022, 11:06:22 pm by JohnShadows »

Ana

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Re: Woke libraries
« Reply #50 on: August 24, 2022, 04:35:31 pm »
And enacting laws that cost other people money.

From what I've read, one of Florida's new laws requires schools to hire an "educational materials specialist" to personally vet (i.e. censor) all purchased and donated books. How's that for the ballooning educational bureaucracy that everyone loves to complain about?

I'd be against that. It's better to mandate a committee of parents elected by parents.

Unpaid volunteers are much more likely to be ideologically motivated, and harder to be captured.

Orson

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Re: Woke libraries
« Reply #51 on: August 24, 2022, 04:39:56 pm »
Quote
If that's the case, why do you think it's a worthwhile use of taxpayer money?
It may seem circular, but in some sense, it's "worthwhile" if it's funded. By that I mean, the community made the decision that it's worthwhile, and that's how these things are settled.  My personal take is that it contributes to greater literacy and a more informed public, and that's a worthwhile end.
Sounds like we may be able to reach a consensus that the work this library was insisting on doing was no longer "worthwhile," insofar as the community decided to cease funding it. Common ground!


(I assume this conclusion won't actually be agreed to when people decide to stop funding, but I'd welcome being surprised on this point.)

Ana

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Re: Woke libraries
« Reply #52 on: August 24, 2022, 04:43:10 pm »
Should the woke minority in a conservative town have to pony up for a library that only has conservative books?

If the conservative books are bible study guides, let them express the dissatisfaction and convince their fellow people to remove them.

Leave just the stuff everybody likes: adventure books, clean romance, sci-fi, fantasy (but not the gory kind), cookbooks, travel books, non-fiction, and stuff that everybody is OK with having their money spent on.

Libraries should be neutral, and provide books nobody in the community really strongly objects to.

Orson

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Re: Woke libraries
« Reply #53 on: August 24, 2022, 04:47:57 pm »
Should the woke minority in a conservative town have to pony up for a library that only has conservative books?

If the conservative books are bible study guides, let them express the dissatisfaction and convince their fellow people to remove them.

Leave just the stuff everybody likes: adventure books, clean romance, sci-fi, fantasy (but not the gory kind), cookbooks, travel books, non-fiction, and stuff that everybody is OK with having their money spent on.

Libraries should be neutral, and provide books nobody in the community really strongly objects to.
"Nobody" is probably too strong a demand (there are also some people who feel strongly on virtually any topic; e.g., I'd imagine any decent sized community would have at least one person who would oppose including cookbooks that use meat if that would be sufficient to get them removed), but I do think the general principle there is sound.

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Re: Woke libraries
« Reply #54 on: August 24, 2022, 04:49:16 pm »
And if that library allows kids to learn things their parents don't want them to learn then this is a feature, not a bug.

Who exactly do you think you are deciding what things somebody else's kid should learn?

This is a good question, and my answer is: “someone who thinks that kids should have access to all knowledge and all information, should they choose to seek it out”.

In a dispute where parents want to allow (but not force!) their kids to learn something that the state does not want the kids to learn, I am on the side of the parents.

In a dispute where the state wants to allow (but not force!) the kids to learn something that their parents do not want their kids to learn, I am on the side of the state.

In either case, if one of the sides does not want the kids learning about something, I think that is an especially good argument for letting the kids have access to that thing (but, again, not forcing that knowledge upon them).

“Beware of he who would deny you access to information, for in his heart he dreams himself your master.”

Quote
How about we stock the library with white supremacist recruiting pamphlets? If the librarians are handing those out to the kids against the parents' wishes, that's a feature, not a bug, right?

We absolutely should stock the library with those things. “Handing them out to the kids” is improper—that is not the librarian’s role. But the library should have them—and Nazi pamphlets, and Communist pamphlets, and religious materials, and woke content—all of it should be available.

EchoChaos

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Re: Woke libraries
« Reply #55 on: August 24, 2022, 04:53:29 pm »
Quote
How about we stock the library with white supremacist recruiting pamphlets? If the librarians are handing those out to the kids against the parents' wishes, that's a feature, not a bug, right?

We absolutely should stock the library with those things. “Handing them out to the kids” is improper—that is not the librarian’s role. But the library should have them—and Nazi pamphlets, and Communist pamphlets, and religious materials, and woke content—all of it should be available.

A librarian's role is absolutely to give advice and suggest both "similar too X" books and generally fun/helpful/useful books.

Randy M

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Re: Woke libraries
« Reply #56 on: August 24, 2022, 04:55:03 pm »
Quote
This is a good question, and my answer is: “someone who thinks that kids should have access to all knowledge and all information, should they choose to seek it out”.
How do you define information? Facts? Opinion pieces too? All written content? Does it have to true? Who decides?
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Re: Woke libraries
« Reply #57 on: August 24, 2022, 04:59:47 pm »
Should the woke minority in a conservative town have to pony up for a library that only has conservative books?

If the conservative books are bible study guides, let them express the dissatisfaction and convince their fellow people to remove them.

Leave just the stuff everybody likes: adventure books, clean romance, sci-fi, fantasy (but not the gory kind), cookbooks, travel books, non-fiction, and stuff that everybody is OK with having their money spent on.

Libraries should be neutral, and provide books nobody in the community really strongly objects to.

Neutral is a great ideal, but allowing what 'nobody in the community really strongly objects to' gives a hecklers' veto.  I've known people to strongly object to Harry Potter, and others to the Bible.  Can we have a book on evolution in the library?  What about a book on intelligent design?

With the above examples, I recall people pushing for particular books to be banned, or to have their kids excluded from (school) activities that involved them, but I don't recall libraries getting defunded or school boards being flipped en masse before (I guess I recally learning about the Scopes Monkey Trial, but that's almost 100 years ago now).

Is this an escalation in the culture war (and if so, is it an escalation by parents or by librarians?), or is there something about these books that really is offensive in a way that the others weren't?  Or am I misremembering, and Harry Potters was actually a much bigger deal?
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Conrad

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Re: Woke libraries
« Reply #58 on: August 24, 2022, 05:01:11 pm »
We absolutely should stock the library with those things. “Handing them out to the kids” is improper—that is not the librarian’s role. But the library should have them—and Nazi pamphlets, and Communist pamphlets, and religious materials, and woke content—all of it should be available.

I can accept that as ideological consistent. I'd prefer the public library, especially in the sections to which kids have access, just have nice, normal books like ana says.

What I find insufferable is the "oh I'm so wise and am deeply saddened by these horrible parents who would deny children access to books what misguided book-burners" shtick. Yeah yeah, these same people would be demanding the librarian's head if their kid came home with a copy of The Turner Diaries.

"I think kids should learn, and make up their own minds!" is the kind of pap people only say about the other tribe's kids. My liberal atheist friend says that about religion for kids. "They should just decide for themselves!" Yeah, yeah, but you'd never say that about, say, race. "Kids should just decide for themselves which races they think they are superior to others!" No, you're going to pretty insistent your kids are well-schooled in whatever your core values happen to be. "Hey, Dad, I was looking up FBI crime statistics at the library and did you know that despite..." That's not going to get ignored. "Kids deciding for themselves" is weaseling to steer the other guy's kid away from his values and maybe towards yours.
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Re: Woke libraries
« Reply #59 on: August 24, 2022, 05:03:43 pm »
No, you're going to pretty insistent your kids are well-schooled in whatever your core values happen to be.

Some people will insist and some people will not.

FWIW, that insistence doesn't have a great success rate.

EchoChaos

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Re: Woke libraries
« Reply #60 on: August 24, 2022, 05:05:37 pm »
We absolutely should stock the library with those things. “Handing them out to the kids” is improper—that is not the librarian’s role. But the library should have them—and Nazi pamphlets, and Communist pamphlets, and religious materials, and woke content—all of it should be available.

I can accept that as ideological consistent. I'd prefer the public library, especially in the sections to which kids have access, just have nice, normal books like ana says.

What I find insufferable is the "oh I'm so wise and am deeply saddened by these horrible parents who would deny children access to books what misguided book-burners" shtick. Yeah yeah, these same people would be demanding the librarian's head if their kid came home with a copy of The Turner Diaries.

"I think kids should learn, and make up their own minds!" is the kind of pap people only say about the other tribe's kids. My liberal atheist friend says that about religion for kids. "They should just decide for themselves!" Yeah, yeah, but you'd never say that about, say, race. "Kids should just decide for themselves which races they think they are superior to others!" No, you're going to pretty insistent your kids are well-schooled in whatever your core values happen to be. "Hey, Dad, I was looking up FBI crime statistics at the library and did you know that despite..." That's not going to get ignored. "Kids deciding for themselves" is weaseling to steer the other guy's kid away from his values and maybe towards yours.

Even for the things they say they're open-minded about, I suspect their kid coming home a new convert to fundamentalist Baptist and thinking all homosexuals are degenerate sinners whose proclivities should be banned by law would be wildly objected to.

The Nybbler

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Re: Woke libraries
« Reply #61 on: August 24, 2022, 05:06:42 pm »
What I find insufferable is the "oh I'm so wise and am deeply saddened by these horrible parents who would deny children access to books what misguided book-burners" shtick. Yeah yeah, these same people would be demanding the librarian's head if their kid came home with a copy of The Turner Diaries.

Right.  "We shouldn't remove books from the public library for ideological reasons" is a lot less palatable a principle when the books are being chosen for ideological reasons in the first place.

Artificirius

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Re: Woke libraries
« Reply #62 on: August 24, 2022, 05:06:59 pm »
Should the woke minority in a conservative town have to pony up for a library that only has conservative books?

If the conservative books are bible study guides, let them express the dissatisfaction and convince their fellow people to remove them.

Leave just the stuff everybody likes: adventure books, clean romance, sci-fi, fantasy (but not the gory kind), cookbooks, travel books, non-fiction, and stuff that everybody is OK with having their money spent on.

Libraries should be neutral, and provide books nobody in the community really strongly objects to.

People strongly objected to presence of Harry Potter books when I was growing up.  While it is ironic that this push in particular is particularly present amongst leftists, this was in fact the opposite case.

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Re: Woke libraries
« Reply #63 on: August 24, 2022, 05:08:35 pm »
Quote
How about we stock the library with white supremacist recruiting pamphlets? If the librarians are handing those out to the kids against the parents' wishes, that's a feature, not a bug, right?

We absolutely should stock the library with those things. “Handing them out to the kids” is improper—that is not the librarian’s role. But the library should have them—and Nazi pamphlets, and Communist pamphlets, and religious materials, and woke content—all of it should be available.

A librarian's role is absolutely to give advice and suggest both "similar too X" books and generally fun/helpful/useful books.

Then if a kid asks for a book recommendation or advice which is properly answered by a white supremacist recruiting pamphlet, the pamphlet is what he should get.

My view is that you may by all means annotate such things with as many “content warnings” as you like; you may (and, indeed, should) bracket them with something like Wikipedia’s NPOV; do all these things, if you find them to be warranted. Certainly there’s no reason why the librarian should be saying “here, kid, read this, it has many good ideas and is pretty much the best guide to good living”, when she points a child to The KKK FAQ or what have you.

In fact—to amend my first paragraph—I can even abide a policy that says something like “librarians won’t recommend these books to kids, and won’t mention them unless specifically asked”. It would be a needless restriction in a saner world, but perhaps in our world it may be called for.

But actually preventing kids from getting their hands on the stuff? Applying an ideological bias when deciding what books to stock? That I cannot support.

Lumifer

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Re: Woke libraries
« Reply #64 on: August 24, 2022, 05:11:54 pm »
But actually preventing kids from getting their hands on the stuff? Applying an ideological bias when deciding what books to stock? That I cannot support.

A good thing the internet made this a moot, purely symbolic discussion.

obormot

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Re: Woke libraries
« Reply #65 on: August 24, 2022, 05:12:31 pm »
Quote
This is a good question, and my answer is: “someone who thinks that kids should have access to all knowledge and all information, should they choose to seek it out”.
How do you define information? Facts?

Yes.

Quote
Opinion pieces too?

Yes.

Quote
All written content?

That seems like a somewhat too-large category, but I’d err on the side of inclusion, when in doubt.

Quote
Does it have to true?

Obviously not, or libraries couldn’t have fiction sections…

Quote
Who decides?

The point is to make it so that there’s as little to decide as possible. But that aside, the question of effective governance of public institutions is both (a) a good one, and (b) rather larger than the scope of this discussion. The short answer, though, is “decisions should be made by whoever will make those decisions in such a way as to satisfy the given desiderata”.

Nick

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Re: Woke libraries
« Reply #66 on: August 24, 2022, 05:16:20 pm »
No, you're going to pretty insistent your kids are well-schooled in whatever your core values happen to be.

Some people will insist and some people will not.

FWIW, that insistence doesn't have a great success rate.

It doesn't, but it seems to works at the margins, and I'm skeptical of any argument that implies woke parents can do it all they want but conservative parents should never ever no how definitely not. Otherwise it's just one more ratchet.

Needlessly Skeptical

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Re: Woke libraries
« Reply #67 on: August 24, 2022, 05:19:06 pm »
Quote
We absolutely should stock the library with those things. “Handing them out to the kids” is improper—that is not the librarian’s role. But the library should have them—and Nazi pamphlets, and Communist pamphlets, and religious materials, and woke content—all of it should be available.

I agree in principle this should be the goal of libraries.  It is precisely how I would want my local libraries to be run (and as far as I know, is generally how NYC libraries are run).

OTOH, in the case of a locally funded library it is the prerogative of the citizens within the jurisdiction to decide what the goal of their library is - subject to constitutional constraints.

Orson

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Re: Woke libraries
« Reply #68 on: August 24, 2022, 05:23:18 pm »
No, you're going to pretty insistent your kids are well-schooled in whatever your core values happen to be.

Some people will insist and some people will not.

FWIW, that insistence doesn't have a great success rate.

It doesn't, but it seems to works at the margins, and I'm skeptical of any argument that implies woke parents can do it all they want but conservative parents should never ever no how definitely not. Otherwise it's just one more ratchet.
Exactly. "Trying to teach your kids your values won't work, and you shouldn't even try" doesn't seem like the most friendly advice when given by your political opponents, and I expect that most people are smart enough to not take it.

Lumifer

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Re: Woke libraries
« Reply #69 on: August 24, 2022, 05:24:27 pm »
No, you're going to pretty insistent your kids are well-schooled in whatever your core values happen to be.

Some people will insist and some people will not.

FWIW, that insistence doesn't have a great success rate.
... I'm skeptical of any argument that implies woke parents can do it all they want but conservative parents should never ever no how definitely not.

Oh, sure. That's not even an argument, that's just a straight-up application of "When I am weaker than you I ask you for freedom because that is according to your principles; when I am stronger than you I take away your freedom because that is according to my principles".

DnDEmerald

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Re: Woke libraries
« Reply #70 on: August 24, 2022, 05:26:33 pm »
What I find insufferable is the "oh I'm so wise and am deeply saddened by these horrible parents who would deny children access to books what misguided book-burners" shtick. Yeah yeah, these same people would be demanding the librarian's head if their kid came home with a copy of The Turner Diaries.

"I think kids should learn, and make up their own minds!" is the kind of pap people only say about the other tribe's kids. My liberal atheist friend says that about religion for kids. "They should just decide for themselves!" Yeah, yeah, but you'd never say that about, say, race. "Kids should just decide for themselves which races they think they are superior to others!" No, you're going to pretty insistent your kids are well-schooled in whatever your core values happen to be. "Hey, Dad, I was looking up FBI crime statistics at the library and did you know that despite..." That's not going to get ignored. "Kids deciding for themselves" is weaseling to steer the other guy's kid away from his values and maybe towards yours.

+1. When someone other than @obormot says this, I assume they're a lying leftist who would not let their children make up their own mind about identity groups and don't want anyone else's children too either.

Quote
I'm skeptical of any argument that implies woke parents can do it all they want but conservative parents should never ever no how definitely not. Otherwise it's just one more ratchet.

Exactly. Insistence for me but not for thee. tt's not hypocrisy because my tribe is good and theirs is deplorable!
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EchoChaos

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Re: Woke libraries
« Reply #71 on: August 24, 2022, 05:27:21 pm »
Quote
How about we stock the library with white supremacist recruiting pamphlets? If the librarians are handing those out to the kids against the parents' wishes, that's a feature, not a bug, right?

We absolutely should stock the library with those things. “Handing them out to the kids” is improper—that is not the librarian’s role. But the library should have them—and Nazi pamphlets, and Communist pamphlets, and religious materials, and woke content—all of it should be available.

A librarian's role is absolutely to give advice and suggest both "similar too X" books and generally fun/helpful/useful books.

Then if a kid asks for a book recommendation or advice which is properly answered by a white supremacist recruiting pamphlet, the pamphlet is what he should get.

The argument is about what that word properly encompasses.

If the librarian answered all requests for "I am looking for books on race relations in America" with white supremacist recruiting pamphlets, should that librarian keep her job?  She is doing her job by giving a helpful book on race relations, after all.

So maybe we require dull and dry answers where she just points to the right section and lets folks go!  There are simply too many things written about literally every topic ever for dry answers like "The Dewey Decimal number for the Civil Rights movement is 323.1196" to be acceptable.  And even if it were, there are limitations of how many books fit on the physical shelf, so someone has to choose which ones are shelved there.  That someone is necessarily a librarian.

Randy M

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Re: Woke libraries
« Reply #72 on: August 24, 2022, 05:30:16 pm »
@obormot
In that case, it isn't really information you worried about, but any thought or idea whatsoever.

It's certainly respectable to presume that no adult has both pure motives and capacity to decide what another should read; it's a much more tenuous argument when talking about a parent and their nine year old.
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Re: Woke libraries
« Reply #73 on: August 24, 2022, 05:31:38 pm »
Quote
So maybe we require dull and dry answers where she just points to the right section and lets folks go!  There are simply too many things written about literally every topic ever for dry answers like "The Dewey Decimal number for the Civil Rights movement is 323.1196" to be acceptable.  And even if it were, there are limitations of how many books fit on the physical shelf, so someone has to choose which ones are shelved there.  That someone is necessarily a librarian.

I thought anyone with a valid library card could request a specific book, subject to the book buying budget and the cost of purchase.

obormot

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Re: Woke libraries
« Reply #74 on: August 24, 2022, 05:31:53 pm »
We absolutely should stock the library with those things. “Handing them out to the kids” is improper—that is not the librarian’s role. But the library should have them—and Nazi pamphlets, and Communist pamphlets, and religious materials, and woke content—all of it should be available.

I can accept that as ideological consistent. I'd prefer the public library, especially in the sections to which kids have access, just have nice, normal books like ana says.

What I find insufferable is the "oh I'm so wise and am deeply saddened by these horrible parents who would deny children access to books what misguided book-burners" shtick. Yeah yeah, these same people would be demanding the librarian's head if their kid came home with a copy of The Turner Diaries.

"I think kids should learn, and make up their own minds!" is the kind of pap people only say about the other tribe's kids. My liberal atheist friend says that about religion for kids. "They should just decide for themselves!" Yeah, yeah, but you'd never say that about, say, race. "Kids should just decide for themselves which races they think they are superior to others!" No, you're going to pretty insistent your kids are well-schooled in whatever your core values happen to be. "Hey, Dad, I was looking up FBI crime statistics at the library and did you know that despite..." That's not going to get ignored. "Kids deciding for themselves" is weaseling to steer the other guy's kid away from his values and maybe towards yours.

Well, you know that I certainly would say it about race—and about religion, yes.

Even for the things they say they're open-minded about, I suspect their kid coming home a new convert to fundamentalist Baptist and thinking all homosexuals are degenerate sinners whose proclivities should be banned by law would be wildly objected to.

Well… yes, of course, but what of it?

I have no kids, but if I were a parent, then you’re absolutely right that I’d object to my kid converting to fundamentalist Baptism, or to any number of other things. And if this were the result of some sort of targeted indoctrination—say, at their school—then yeah, naturally I’d be incensed! I’d want to shut that school down, fire everyone who worked there, salt the ground, etc. I would, in other words, have the same reaction that many parents (quite rightly!) have to the results of the woke indoctrination that their kids are actually subjected to, in many schools today.

But if this happened because my kid read about Christianity in a book he found in the library…? Responding to that with “How dare such materials be available! I should’ve worked harder to ensure that my children never found out about the existence of religion!” would be, quite frankly, insane.

And I suspect that you know perfectly well that kids don’t actually do this. To a first approximation, nobody reads about religion in a book they find and decides to convert—especially not as a child. The library has plenty of books about Islam, about Judaism, Buddhism, Jainism, Hinduism… are you worried that your kid will pick one up and come home from the library having rejected Christ and decided to worship Vishnu? Of course not.

What you’re actually worried is an entirely different category of “problematic” content—the sort such that mere exposure to that content poses a danger that children thus exposed will begin to doubt the worldview that you are trying to inculcate. Gender Queer is an example of such content. @Conrad’s “FBI crime statistics” is also an example of such content. Books about various religions are not an example of such content.

The commonality is this: what makes people worried about the effects of mere exposure to it, is the truth. And the reason to worry about your kids’ exposure to the truth is simply that you are lying to them.

obormot

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Re: Woke libraries
« Reply #75 on: August 24, 2022, 05:33:22 pm »
I agree in principle this should be the goal of libraries.  It is precisely how I would want my local libraries to be run (and as far as I know, is generally how NYC libraries are run).

Re: NYC libraries: this is my experience also.

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Re: Woke libraries
« Reply #76 on: August 24, 2022, 05:37:26 pm »
@obormot
In that case, it isn't really information you worried about, but any thought or idea whatsoever.

This seems like a distinction without a difference. I’m not even sure what distinction you are trying to draw here, to be honest.

Quote
It's certainly respectable to presume that no adult has both pure motives and capacity to decide what another should read; it's a much more tenuous argument when talking about a parent and their nine year old.

Well, the thing is that “decide what another should read” is an ambiguous phrase, which allows you to equivocate. “Choose what to draw the kid’s attention to” (or, for younger children, “choose what to read to/with them”) is one thing. “Choose what the kid should have access to” is rather another thing.

There are some common-sense lines that may be drawn. Gore, graphic violence, hardcore pornography—yes, it makes sense to keep this stuff away from kids. (Though there are caveats even here; but the basic principle is reasonable enough.) But beyond that? If we’re talking about restricting access, I really don’t think that it’s a tenuous argument at all.

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Re: Woke libraries
« Reply #77 on: August 24, 2022, 05:40:12 pm »
(a) The book-burners are making the dumb dumber, and I'm against that in principle, however: 
(b) given the public outcry, the library officials should have at least cordoned this content off from minors. Their strategy here was counterproductive, and not a hill to die on.   
Please note:

The Guardian reports that in this instance the book was in the adults section.
Quote from: The Guardian
Though the library put Kobabe’s book behind the counter rather than on the shelves, the volumes remained available.
I've never understood the purity impulse that says, "This probable sick filth must be kept from me and anyone else, so we can continue to know nothing about it." I certainly don't respect it at all. But I'm relieved to see that it's not confined to the left.
Ok, I didn't see this. So this really wasn't a case of "keep it away from the kids", it was just dumb homophobic book burners.  And ...

Quote
The backlash grew from there. One March day, staffers said, a woman showed up at the library, recording a video and yelling: “Where is she? Where is the pink-haired freak? Where is the pedophile librarian?”
... Facebook culture warriors. Jesus H. Goldberg.


Only 1/3 of the town showed up to vote, and this narrowly passed, so it may get undone. If not, it appears that the librarians at least got jobs elsewhere.
« Last Edit: August 24, 2022, 05:49:26 pm by JohnShadows »

obormot

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Re: Woke libraries
« Reply #78 on: August 24, 2022, 05:44:05 pm »
Quote
How about we stock the library with white supremacist recruiting pamphlets? If the librarians are handing those out to the kids against the parents' wishes, that's a feature, not a bug, right?

We absolutely should stock the library with those things. “Handing them out to the kids” is improper—that is not the librarian’s role. But the library should have them—and Nazi pamphlets, and Communist pamphlets, and religious materials, and woke content—all of it should be available.

A librarian's role is absolutely to give advice and suggest both "similar too X" books and generally fun/helpful/useful books.

Then if a kid asks for a book recommendation or advice which is properly answered by a white supremacist recruiting pamphlet, the pamphlet is what he should get.

The argument is about what that word properly encompasses.

If the librarian answered all requests for "I am looking for books on race relations in America" with white supremacist recruiting pamphlets, should that librarian keep her job?  She is doing her job by giving a helpful book on race relations, after all.

This librarian should not keep her job, though the reason why she shouldn’t keep her job doesn’t really have much to do with anything like “it’s racist”.

Quote
So maybe we require dull and dry answers where she just points to the right section and lets folks go!  There are simply too many things written about literally every topic ever for dry answers like "The Dewey Decimal number for the Civil Rights movement is 323.1196" to be acceptable.

Nah, this is totally false. I’ve never needed a librarian to find things by topic, and I’ve used libraries extensively all my life (NYC’s public library systems—plural!—are extremely useful, not to mention massive). It’s just not the case that librarians are necessary for this sort of thing nowadays. Computer search systems have more than obsoleted them.

Quote
And even if it were, there are limitations of how many books fit on the physical shelf, so someone has to choose which ones are shelved there.  That someone is necessarily a librarian.

Yep, that’s true. And that choice should be made with as little ideological bias as is possible. (As for the question of how to accomplish that—I addressed that in an earlier post.)

Conrad

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Re: Woke libraries
« Reply #79 on: August 24, 2022, 05:44:54 pm »
The commonality is this: what makes people worried about the effects of mere exposure to it, is the truth. And the reason to worry about your kids’ exposure to the truth is simply that you are lying to them.

Naw, that's not true at all. People are definitely worried about their kids getting exposed to lies, too.
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Re: Woke libraries
« Reply #80 on: August 24, 2022, 05:50:25 pm »
This librarian should not keep her job, though the reason why she shouldn’t keep her job doesn’t really have much to do with anything like “it’s racist”.

Why should she lose her job, then?  I genuinely don't get this one.

Quote
So maybe we require dull and dry answers where she just points to the right section and lets folks go!  There are simply too many things written about literally every topic ever for dry answers like "The Dewey Decimal number for the Civil Rights movement is 323.1196" to be acceptable.

Nah, this is totally false. I’ve never needed a librarian to find things by topic, and I’ve used libraries extensively all my life (NYC’s public library systems—plural!—are extremely useful, not to mention massive). It’s just not the case that librarians are necessary for this sort of thing nowadays. Computer search systems have more than obsoleted them.

I haven't had any issues either, because my mother is a librarian and taught me how to.  Generalizing our abilities to the broader populace is extremely suspect.

Quote
And even if it were, there are limitations of how many books fit on the physical shelf, so someone has to choose which ones are shelved there.  That someone is necessarily a librarian.

Yep, that’s true. And that choice should be made with as little ideological bias as is possible. (As for the question of how to accomplish that—I addressed that in an earlier post.)

I guess I missed how that is done.  Was that post in this thread?

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Re: Woke libraries
« Reply #81 on: August 24, 2022, 05:54:33 pm »
I have no kids, but if I were a parent, then you’re absolutely right that I’d object to my kid converting to fundamentalist Baptism, or to any number of other things. And if this were the result of some sort of targeted indoctrination—say, at their school—then yeah, naturally I’d be incensed! I’d want to shut that school down, fire everyone who worked there, salt the ground, etc. I would, in other words, have the same reaction that many parents (quite rightly!) have to the results of the woke indoctrination that their kids are actually subjected to, in many schools today.

But if this happened because my kid read about Christianity in a book he found in the library…? Responding to that with “How dare such materials be available! I should’ve worked harder to ensure that my children never found out about the existence of religion!” would be, quite frankly, insane.

And I suspect that you know perfectly well that kids don’t actually do this. To a first approximation, nobody reads about religion in a book they find and decides to convert—especially not as a child. The library has plenty of books about Islam, about Judaism, Buddhism, Jainism, Hinduism… are you worried that your kid will pick one up and come home from the library having rejected Christ and decided to worship Vishnu? Of course not.

What you’re actually worried is an entirely different category of “problematic” content—the sort such that mere exposure to that content poses a danger that children thus exposed will begin to doubt the worldview that you are trying to inculcate. Gender Queer is an example of such content. @Conrad’s “FBI crime statistics” is also an example of such content. Books about various religions are not an example of such content.

The commonality is this: what makes people worried about the effects of mere exposure to it, is the truth. And the reason to worry about your kids’ exposure to the truth is simply that you are lying to them.

And if the library board was run by Christians, and they had a policy that books needed to have Christian-values, that they'd prioritize buying anything Bible-related available before considering other materials? That anything anti-religion, or which cast doubt on the Bible can not be purchased?

So they end up with a library full of books celebrating Christianity, and Christian apologetics, and about how bad atheists are, because they just happen to be the bad guys in all the fiction, while the main character is inspired by Jesus to do good and solve everyone's problems.

I'm in a Facebook group with a children's librarian who publishes a report each week on the contents of the new books he gets to process. It looks more like the above, but with left-wing sensibilities.

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Re: Woke libraries
« Reply #82 on: August 24, 2022, 05:56:14 pm »
Are the normal purchasing decisions made by whoever the official normally responsible is for those decisions 'censoring' when they decide not to buy a book?

Because it sounds, in awful lot of these cases, like the objection isn't that this Bradburian knocking-down-people's-doors to destroy banned books, but instead it's an incumbent with the power of choice using high flying rhetoric to preserve their office's powers.

The case I read about was a school district that refused donated dictionaries (as well as all other book donations) because they didn't have the staff required to officially vet them.

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Re: Woke libraries
« Reply #83 on: August 24, 2022, 06:14:36 pm »
I don't always buy the blackpill view, but I do suspect that it's going to be pretty tough to find a librarian who won't be at minimum fairly far left.

I think you'd be surprised about this. I remember one time when I by chance stumbled on a group called The Pacific Northwest Association of Church Libraries.


If the conservative books are bible study guides, let them express the dissatisfaction and convince their fellow people to remove them.

Leave just the stuff everybody likes: adventure books, clean romance, sci-fi, fantasy (but not the gory kind), cookbooks, travel books, non-fiction, and stuff that everybody is OK with having their money spent on.

Libraries should be neutral, and provide books nobody in the community really strongly objects to.

Earlier in this very thread, someone posted about attempts to ban Harry Potter. (And not because of Rowling's TERFism or whatever). Nothing is unobjectionable to everyone.


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Re: Woke libraries
« Reply #84 on: August 24, 2022, 06:19:10 pm »
And if the library board was run by Christians, and they had a policy that books needed to have Christian-values, that they'd prioritize buying anything Bible-related available before considering other materials? That anything anti-religion, or which cast doubt on the Bible can not be purchased?
This seems like the wrong way of framing a comparison to what's actually happening. What the librarians claimed was that the gay part of the community deserved some representation, and I see no evidence that this came with the exclusion of Christian content. In fact, I found the nearest library in the same county, searched on "Jesus", and got pages of hits. This included:

Quote
Seeking Allah, Finding Jesus
a Devout Muslim Encounters Christianity
Qureshi, Nabeel

(161 ratings)
Book, 2016

Qureshi describes his dramatic journey from Islam to Christianity, and shares how he developed a passion for Islam before discovering, almost against his will, evidence that Jesus rose from the dead and claimed to be God-- and of the peace he eventually found in Jesus.

Also, The Jesus I Know: Honest Conversations and Diverse Opinions About Who He Is by Kathie Lee Gifford, which has got to be some empowering stuff. "Bible" returns even more.

The problem didn't look to be over-representation of the minority at the expense of the majority. The majority just didn't want the minority represented at all.


Conrad

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Re: Woke libraries
« Reply #85 on: August 24, 2022, 06:25:27 pm »
Earlier in this very thread, someone posted about attempts to ban Harry Potter. (And not because of Rowling's TERFism or whatever). Nothing is unobjectionable to everyone.

If the majority of the town doesn't want their kids reading Harry Potter, why should their tax dollars be buying copies to lend to their kids? Isn't this how democracy is sort of supposed to work?
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Ana

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Re: Woke libraries
« Reply #86 on: August 24, 2022, 06:34:35 pm »
Earlier in this very thread, someone posted about attempts to ban Harry Potter. (And not because of Rowling's TERFism or whatever). Nothing is unobjectionable to everyone.

If the majority of the town doesn't want their kids reading Harry Potter, why should their tax dollars be buying copies to lend to their kids? Isn't this how democracy is sort of supposed to work?

This.

But, to be fair, if the town's divided, the library could hold a referendum.

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Re: Woke libraries
« Reply #87 on: August 24, 2022, 06:35:20 pm »
Leave just the stuff everybody likes:
... sci-fi ...
The first rule of library book club is that you don't tell the grownups about old man Heinlein, Ellison, Ballard, or indeed any of the New Wave. You wouldn't want to make a puppy cry.

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Re: Woke libraries
« Reply #88 on: August 24, 2022, 06:45:04 pm »
As an interesting semi-related note: my children were at an activity last night and I had some time to spend, so I went and hung out in the nearest library.

On the shelf with the other "children's health" books was a "decide if vaccination is right for your child" book, which was fairly anti-vaccination.

What's the best response?

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Conrad

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Re: Woke libraries
« Reply #89 on: August 24, 2022, 06:50:23 pm »
On the shelf with the other "children's health" books was a "decide if vaccination is right for your child" book, which was fairly anti-vaccination.

What's the best response?

Nod, and say "based."
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Re: Woke libraries
« Reply #90 on: August 24, 2022, 06:52:23 pm »
As an interesting semi-related note: my children were at an activity last night and I had some time to spend, so I went and hung out in the nearest library.

On the shelf with the other "children's health" books was a "decide if vaccination is right for your child" book, which was fairly anti-vaccination.

What's the best response?

Covid vaccination or childhood vaccination (DPT, MMR, etc)?  If the former, rejoice that the juggernaut ideology hasn't completely taken over your library, or at least the implementors aren't too competent.  If the latter, doesn't mean much (since before COVID, vaccination resistance wasn't a left-right divide)

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Re: Woke libraries
« Reply #91 on: August 24, 2022, 06:53:19 pm »
And enacting laws that cost other people money.

From what I've read, one of Florida's new laws requires schools to hire an "educational materials specialist" to personally vet (i.e. censor) all purchased and donated books. How's that for the ballooning educational bureaucracy that everyone loves to complain about?

For each inquisitor educational materials specialist that is hired, just fire one diversity officer. Or three.

Beat me to it.
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Re: Woke libraries
« Reply #92 on: August 24, 2022, 06:53:55 pm »
As an interesting semi-related note: my children were at an activity last night and I had some time to spend, so I went and hung out in the nearest library.

On the shelf with the other "children's health" books was a "decide if vaccination is right for your child" book, which was fairly anti-vaccination.

What's the best response?

Covid vaccination or childhood vaccination (DPT, MMR, etc)?  If the former, rejoice that the juggernaut ideology hasn't completely taken over your library, or at least the implementors aren't too competent.  If the latter, doesn't mean much (since before COVID, vaccination resistance wasn't a left-right divide)

Childhood vaccinations--I'd guess the book was at least a decade old.

And the immunology was deeply terrible.

ETA: it was this book
« Last Edit: August 24, 2022, 07:02:23 pm by SamChevre »
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marshwiggle

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Re: Woke libraries
« Reply #93 on: August 24, 2022, 07:05:57 pm »
I loved libraries as a kid, and my kids love libraries.  So I've been watching the takeover of libraries forever.

I first noticed it with the history books.  Increasingly, there were whole bits of history that went from having a book about them, to just no book at all about them.  White people history that wouldn't be cheered on by the usual suspects was the rough pattern of suppression.   That was 20 to 30 years ago.

Since then, I've heard a lot of librarians assuming that because I clearly like libraries, I must be on their side and they should brag about how much they have been able to do in removing any book that could give kids inconvenient facts, and instead done everything in their power to make sure kids ended up with books that will instill the 'correct' values in them.  This isn't empty bragging either - I am probably one of the few people to notice which books are removed, as few people keep a sort of mental map of 1000+ books in a library.  The pushing of the usual stuff is presumably more obvious.  Anyway, it has been quite clear - from actions and words - that librarians seen themselves as having a duty to be activist which overrides other duties, and they have been allowed quite a good bit of freedom to do this.

For a while, the libraries dared not remove the top tier classics of literature.  But increasingly, those things aren't on the shelves.

All this, of course, is ignoring the degree to which libraries have shifted their focus away from books.


As for solutions, I think many communities have a whole pile of old people who would be glad to work (possibly part time) in the local library.  It would be good for the old people, and replacing library science trained people in their 20s hopefully has a lot of good second order effects.  I think that pushing from the direction of hiring and budgets is more likely to go well than installing one's own commissars or ban lists.

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Re: Woke libraries
« Reply #94 on: August 24, 2022, 07:16:52 pm »
This didn't produce the desired effect: he turned out gay, as he was going to no matter what he read.

This is just availability bias.  If such a plan was successful, you'd never have heard about it.  "Parents keep kid away from gay materials, kid grows up straight" is not news, and even if it was somehow reported, you'd just have said "that proves nothing, kids can be straight anyway".

Social media obviously affects the number of non-straight kids.  I don't see what's so impossible about libraries doing the same a few years back.

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Re: Woke libraries
« Reply #95 on: August 24, 2022, 07:22:43 pm »
The first rule of library book club is that you don't tell the grownups about old man Heinlein, Ellison, Ballard, or indeed any of the New Wave. You wouldn't want to make a puppy cry.

By modern standards, Heinlein is about half (maybe less) things that only became acceptable in the progressive era, and half things that became unacceptable in the progressive era (and were right-wing, but acceptable, before that).  And even some of the stuff that would be approved by older progressives would be considered horrible by the woke.  If you think that the only groups who object to Heinlein would be the same groups who would object to Ellison, or the New Wave, who want to keep gay material out of libraries, you may be surprised.

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Re: Woke libraries
« Reply #96 on: August 24, 2022, 07:23:56 pm »
This didn't produce the desired effect: he turned out gay, as he was going to no matter what he read.

This is just availability bias.  If such a plan was successful, you'd never have heard about it.  "Parents keep kid away from gay materials, kid grows up straight" is not news, and even if it was somehow reported, you'd just have said "that proves nothing, kids can be straight anyway".

Social media obviously affects the number of non-straight kids.  I don't see what's so impossible about libraries doing the same a few years back.

Also, I don't know why one would think HP or Narnia would make kids gay, and she "tried her best" to shield him from sexual materials, but it doesn't say she succeeded. Just because he didn't catch the gays from Harry Potter doesn't mean he didn't catch them somewhere else.
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Re: Woke libraries
« Reply #97 on: August 24, 2022, 07:58:15 pm »
And I suspect that you know perfectly well that kids don’t actually do this. To a first approximation, nobody reads about religion in a book they find and decides to convert—especially not as a child. The library has plenty of books about Islam, about Judaism, Buddhism, Jainism, Hinduism… are you worried that your kid will pick one up and come home from the library having rejected Christ and decided to worship Vishnu? Of course not.

What you’re actually worried is an entirely different category of “problematic” content—the sort such that mere exposure to that content poses a danger that children thus exposed will begin to doubt the worldview that you are trying to inculcate. Gender Queer is an example of such content. @Conrad’s “FBI crime statistics” is also an example of such content. Books about various religions are not an example of such content.

The commonality is this: what makes people worried about the effects of mere exposure to it, is the truth. And the reason to worry about your kids’ exposure to the truth is simply that you are lying to them.

Stanley Fish wrote about a woman who believed that religions other than Christianity were invented by the devil in order to lead people to damnation, and were engineered by him to be especially appealing and seductive. She then maintained that she didn't want her children to learn any of the substance of other religious traditions' beliefs or practices. The court reviewing this dispute maintained that there is an obvious distinction between education and indoctrination and that telling people some facts about other religions is not at all encouraging them to believe or practice them. As Fish pointed out, the woman was unpersuaded; the court certainly seemed to be denying that the devil had in fact designed these beliefs in order to seduce her children away from Christianity.

I agree strongly with everything you've said in this thread, except I don't think that the conceptual distinctions that you make here are very clear or very stable.

Quote from: They Might Be Giants
A woman came up to me and said
"I'd like to poison your mind
With wrong ideas that appeal to you
Though I am not unkind."

By the way, I know someone who converted to a religion as a result of hearing a brief academic description of it during a religious studies class that was taught from a secular viewpoint. I don't mean to suggest that that is common or anything.

geoduck

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Re: Woke libraries
« Reply #98 on: August 24, 2022, 07:59:52 pm »
The first rule of library book club is that you don't tell the grownups about old man Heinlein, Ellison, Ballard, or indeed any of the New Wave. You wouldn't want to make a puppy cry.
By modern standards, Heinlein is about half (maybe less) things that only became acceptable in the progressive era, and half things that became unacceptable in the progressive era (and were right-wing, but acceptable, before that).  And even some of the stuff that would be approved by older progressives would be considered horrible by the woke.  If you think that the only groups who object to Heinlein would be the same groups who would object to Ellison, or the New Wave, who want to keep gay material out of libraries, you may be surprised.
Sounds like we're in agreement with response to ana532942's post. (I suspect that Heinlein's incest fantasies are no more ready for prime time than ever before, and possibly less.)

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Re: Woke libraries
« Reply #99 on: August 24, 2022, 08:00:26 pm »
This is just availability bias.  If such a plan was successful, you'd never have heard about it.
That's because I don't believe that any such "success" would be a result of that type of strategy. Sexual orientation is likely determined at/by birth or in early childhood.  If S = turns out straight, G = turns out gay, and E = non-abusive social exposure to non-traditional orientations, P(S|E) = P(S) and P(G|E) = P(G). A kid is gay or straight long before they pick up Harry Potter.

Quote
"Parents keep kid away from gay materials, kid grows up straight" is not news, and even if it was somehow reported, you'd just have said "that proves nothing, kids can be straight anyway".
Can be straight? Taking P(S) = 92.9%, it's only natural to expect them to be.

Quote
Social media obviously affects the number of non-straight kids.
Link? There's nothing obvious about this whatsoever. I doubt the distribution of orientation outcomes has changed at all. The norms and proscriptions around identification have. I think there were more bi's and gays who were closeted 35 years ago.

Conrad

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Re: Woke libraries
« Reply #100 on: August 24, 2022, 08:02:49 pm »
Sexual orientation is likely determined at/by birth or in early childhood.

By what mechanism?
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Re: Woke libraries
« Reply #101 on: August 24, 2022, 08:06:42 pm »
It seems since I started this reply the conversation's moved on from woke libraries to whether people are born gay (could we get a split?)

To understand (or influence) a public library, I'd start with their collection development policy.  If you google "public library collection development policy", you'll usually find statements about the purpose of the collections and the principles used to acquire books.  If you care about your own public library, search for theirs.  Usually the utility to the public served is explicitly stated in such policies, and is an easy metric to try to optimize.

Every library measures how often books circulate and how many people are served.  It's a weird kind of market, but one whose failure cases can be predicted.  (for example, that all can use computers, and bathrooms at no cost, the usage will skew towards people who have fewer better options for those resources).

For those concerned about how their money is being used at their public library it makes all sorts of sense to ensure that those collection development policies are in alignment with their values, and that they are being generally adhered to in good faith.

Those incensed, who advocate to defund the library based on a handful of individual books aren't going to fix the problem that so enrages them.

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Re: Woke libraries
« Reply #102 on: August 24, 2022, 08:07:02 pm »
Men and women seem to be different in how readily they will adopt--or at least affect--different sexual orientations.
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Re: Woke libraries
« Reply #103 on: August 24, 2022, 08:10:16 pm »
You tossers need to stop making me agree with Obormot.  The public library's value is as a repository of freely available information; if you do not want your kids reading Baby's First Mein Kampf, you should watch what your damned kids are checking out from the library!  Look at what's going in your bag.  It's not that hard, and you shouldn't deny teens who are writing high school research papers on contemporary hate lit, or whatever people want Baby's First Mein Kampf for.  If you're that lazy about the library, God only knows what kind of filth they're getting into on the smartphones you probably also let them have.

My kids (who adore the library) understand that I have veto power, though I'm usually pretty flexible.  I gently steer them away from, say, The Golden Compass, and also from the far larger volume of books and media which are simply dreck without being outright offensive.  If other parents want their children to read tedious atheist Chronicles of Narnia, or can't be arsed to prevent them, that's on them.

EDIT: this is distinct from Drag Queen Story Hour or whatever, and also the question of whether homeless people should be allowed to openly masturbate in public facilities.
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Randy M

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Re: Woke libraries
« Reply #104 on: August 24, 2022, 08:13:00 pm »
I wonder how valid complaints of "don't spend my money on x" are. I suspect the concern is more of a moral one--not wanting to fund things you disapprove of--than a fiscal one, as cities have many much larger expenditures than a couple buildings with books. And the marginal cost of any book has got to round off to zero. (And, as Obormot/Gwern will remind us, there's not really any need for established libraries to buy new fiction, anyway.)
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Re: Woke libraries
« Reply #105 on: August 24, 2022, 08:42:05 pm »
I've always been suspicious of people who say "homosexuality is a lifestyle choice", since some of the nonsense I've put up with from various women, just for the sake of sleeping with them, indicates there's something more animal at the core.
I want to isolate and amplify this point, because it's something that absolutely baffles me about the narrative of woke media grooming our children into homosexuality. I could be persuaded that Trans is the new Goth for the high school set, apart from any incidence of whatever might constitute actual trans-ness. But the implied theory of sexuality as socially conditioned, apparently fully fluid, and somehow divorced from one of the basest instincts we have, seems very...impersonal. Is that what it was like for y'all? Because in hindsight, the way I leaned was always obvious--and it wasn't socially-conditioned.

Purplehermann

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Re: Woke libraries
« Reply #106 on: August 24, 2022, 08:47:17 pm »
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What you’re actually worried is an entirely different category of “problematic” content—the sort such that mere exposure to that content poses a danger that children thus exposed will begin to doubt the worldview that you are trying to inculcate. Gender Queer is an example of such content. @Conrad’s “FBI crime statistics” is also an example of such content. Books about various religions are not an example of such content.

The commonality is this: what makes people worried about the effects of mere exposure to it, is the truth. And the reason to worry about your kids’ exposure to the truth is simply that you are lying to them.

There is a wider scope to view this through.
The commonality is memes that are rather horizontally infectious,
 and the parents don't like.
Assuming truth is a critical part of horizontal infectivity seems wrong to me. It can be helpful. Truth can also be inconvenient for horizontal spread, compared to fiction. I think a meme only needs to be true in the areas where it would otherwise be reality checked by the infectee, beyond that truth isn't all that useful.

Purplehermann

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Re: Woke libraries
« Reply #107 on: August 24, 2022, 08:53:05 pm »
@geoduck I definitely came prewired with hetero preferences, but I'm pretty sure I could 'push' my brain and I could develop some llevel of homo attraction (the thought of the actual sex disgusts me, but if motivated it's not that hard to get rid of disgust).

Look at porn preferences, human sexuality is clearly plastic to some degree.

theredsheep

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Re: Woke libraries
« Reply #108 on: August 24, 2022, 08:59:46 pm »
I've always been suspicious of people who say "homosexuality is a lifestyle choice", since some of the nonsense I've put up with from various women, just for the sake of sleeping with them, indicates there's something more animal at the core.
I want to isolate and amplify this point, because it's something that absolutely baffles me about the narrative of woke media grooming our children into homosexuality. I could be persuaded that Trans is the new Goth for the high school set, apart from any incidence of whatever might constitute actual trans-ness. But the implied theory of sexuality as socially conditioned, apparently fully fluid, and somehow divorced from one of the basest instincts we have, seems very...impersonal. Is that what it was like for y'all? Because in hindsight, the way I leaned was always obvious--and it wasn't socially-conditioned.

I think the point of "groomer" is more that it desensitizes kids so they don't make as big a deal when adults cross boundaries, and that victims of sexual abuse are more likely to abuse others, or something.  My take on it is that I'm sick of encountering token homosexual diversity-mascot cheerleading rubbish, and doubt it does anything to shift anyone's beliefs one way or another.  It's all so much bloody posturing, and I don't believe it's sinister when the boring and irritating explanation is more plausible.

Also IIRC around age twelve my priorities abruptly shifted so that getting my hands on a pair of breasts became the single most important thing in the world, and I can't imagine how social pressure would have changed that.  I don't think I ever wanted anything that much for that long before or since.  Just for the record.
I'm an Orthodox Christian, respiratory therapist, amateur novelist, father of three.  Hi.

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Re: Woke libraries
« Reply #109 on: August 24, 2022, 09:01:45 pm »
And I suspect that you know perfectly well that kids don’t actually do this. To a first approximation, nobody reads about religion in a book they find and decides to convert—especially not as a child. The library has plenty of books about Islam, about Judaism, Buddhism, Jainism, Hinduism… are you worried that your kid will pick one up and come home from the library having rejected Christ and decided to worship Vishnu? Of course not.

What you’re actually worried is an entirely different category of “problematic” content—the sort such that mere exposure to that content poses a danger that children thus exposed will begin to doubt the worldview that you are trying to inculcate. Gender Queer is an example of such content. @Conrad’s “FBI crime statistics” is also an example of such content. Books about various religions are not an example of such content.

The commonality is this: what makes people worried about the effects of mere exposure to it, is the truth. And the reason to worry about your kids’ exposure to the truth is simply that you are lying to them.

Stanley Fish wrote about a woman who believed that religions other than Christianity were invented by the devil in order to lead people to damnation, and were engineered by him to be especially appealing and seductive. She then maintained that she didn't want her children to learn any of the substance of other religious traditions' beliefs or practices. The court reviewing this dispute maintained that there is an obvious distinction between education and indoctrination and that telling people some facts about other religions is not at all encouraging them to believe or practice them. As Fish pointed out, the woman was unpersuaded; the court certainly seemed to be denying that the devil had in fact designed these beliefs in order to seduce her children away from Christianity.

I agree strongly with everything you've said in this thread, except I don't think that the conceptual distinctions that you make here are very clear or very stable.

Er, I think that I’m missing the logic here. What’s the relevance of the story?

I mean, obviously this woman was crazy. Some people are crazy, some people have kids, there’s a sadly large overlap between those sets. Ensuring that children of people like this woman get easy access to all sorts of information is definitely in the public interest, even more so than it is in the case of any other kids!

I mean, the story you recount obviously fits into the heuristic (probably not quite a “rule”) that I suggest. This woman didn’t want her kids to learn about other religions, because she knew perfectly well that as soon as they started reading “comparative religion” material (among other things), they’d realize that their mother was an absolute nutcase; and once they realized that, they’d also start questioning the rest of what she’d taught them, and that’d be the start of their journey toward being sane people who are capable of thinking for themselves.

This is a good thing, obviously! We want people whose parents are nuts to realize this fact, as early as possible, before their brains are irretrievably warped. This is very much in the public interest.

And now note that we can easily extend this argument beyond “parents”.

If a kid’s teachers are crazy, we want the kids to realize this as quickly as possible. If they’re being taught idiotic nonsense at school, we want them to figure this out. If the official curriculum distorts history, if the official sources lie about statistics, if the official narrative blatantly contradicts reality—we want people to be able to realize this, as quickly as possible; we want people, of all ages, to be able to notice when they are being lied to, when they are being propagandized at, when they are confronted with bullshit.

And that means one thing: access to information—as broad and unrestricted as we can make it.

Quote
Quote from: They Might Be Giants
A woman came up to me and said
"I'd like to poison your mind
With wrong ideas that appeal to you
Though I am not unkind."

By the way, I know someone who converted to a religion as a result of hearing a brief academic description of it during a religious studies class that was taught from a secular viewpoint. I don't mean to suggest that that is common or anything.

Yes, of course you can find extremely rare examples of all sorts of things. (And was the person in your anecdote a child, even? Or an adult?)

William Boot

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Re: Woke libraries
« Reply #110 on: August 24, 2022, 09:14:49 pm »
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We absolutely should stock the library with those things. “Handing them out to the kids” is improper—that is not the librarian’s role. But the library should have them—and Nazi pamphlets, and Communist pamphlets, and religious materials, and woke content—all of it should be available.

I agree in principle this should be the goal of libraries.  It is precisely how I would want my local libraries to be run (and as far as I know, is generally how NYC libraries are run).

OTOH, in the case of a locally funded library it is the prerogative of the citizens within the jurisdiction to decide what the goal of their library is - subject to constitutional constraints.

Ideally, I'd like libraries to have everything too. and all the forbidden ideas for both sides would be there.

That probably is sustainable at really large systems like NYC.

It's not sustainable at small libraries. They can only have a tiny fraction of published materials. They need to choose. There are enough good books that offend very few people to fill most small libraries 100 times over. There's no need for My Two Mommies or The Turner Diaries there.

Eilesberu

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Re: Woke libraries
« Reply #111 on: August 24, 2022, 09:19:29 pm »
I think there's more than one issue at play here, in particular:

Issue 1) Libraries provide books to people who request them.

If enough people request a particular book the library probably will buy it, regardless of its political leaning.  There may be some biases introduced based on the type of people more likely to request a library stock a book, but it's probably at least somewhat biased towards reflecting the local community of library users.  Of course, there's another potential layer of bias in that librarians would much prefer to have the books ready to lend before the books are requested, so they stock in anticipation of a community's needs.  Sometimes these purchases are no-brainers: of course a library would want as many copies as possible of Harry Potter 7 on launch day, and they'd still have a waitlist of months.  But other times they'll buy stock book they think the community should want to read, often based on recommendations by organizations such as the ALA, which according to a close relative's personal experience is heavily ideologically captured.

Regardless, in the sense that the library exists to provide books/information to those requesting, I tend to lean towards Obormot's position that the information provided should be as broad as possible, even if in practice it's a little complicated to try and do so.

Issue 2) Libraries provide an editorial-like service when they recommend books to patrons

This happens when librarians are directly asked "what book should I read today?", but it also happens indirectly through what books are more prominently shelved or get featured on special displays that are rotated on occasion.  This in undoubtedly going to be influenced heavily influenced by the librarian's biases: what does the librarian think the patron should read.  If I come in as a parent and say my child is trans and I don't know how to respond, I'd come away with very different thoughts depending on whether the librarian recommended Gender Queer or Irreversible Damage.

In the sense that librarians are attempting to encourage reading of particular books (especially through shelf placement, displays, reading clubs, etc), here's where I'd agree with ana - they should probably steer away from controversy as much as possible.   But again, the experience of a close relative suggests that a lot of librarians feel it's their role to be community activists.



To the original point of the thread, I wonder how much opposition to issue (1) comes about in reaction to issue (2).  The article I linked above claimed that in this particular instance Gender Queer was on the adult shelves.  But I'd be willing to bet that a large number of these increasingly common incidents comes from having a book recommended, or on display, or read in a book-club that upsets a not-insignificant portion of the community, who are in reality objecting to the editorializing of the library, but who only know how to respond by pushing for the offensive work removed entirely, and who then dig into the catalog to try and remove similar books to prevent those from being recommended in future.
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Humphrey_Appleby

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Re: Woke libraries
« Reply #112 on: August 24, 2022, 09:30:14 pm »
The editorial role, to my mind, is the most important function. And my local librarians are a lot better at it than eg Amazon. In the past few years alone, I discovered (of the top of my head) Jenny Colgan, Adrian Tchaikovsky, and Amor Towles through my local library. Amazon exclusively recommends stuff I’ve already read.

If I was being recommended indoctrination instead I would be pissed.

clutzy

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Re: Woke libraries
« Reply #113 on: August 24, 2022, 09:36:38 pm »
While I am against book banning (even if it's hardcore porn), I think there is a difference between the ban of sales to private individuals (their money, their choice) and communities banning the purchases of certain books in libraries/schools funded by their taxes (their money, their choice).

This story by WSJ seems to frame it differently:

Quote
Voters in Jamestown Township, Mich., located about 20 miles southwest of Grand Rapids, defeated a funding measure for the Patmos Library earlier this month, stripping 85% of its funding for next year. The library, which has an annual budget of about $250,000, is in danger of closing if it can’t replace those funds, said Larry Walton, president of the library’s board.

[...] Patmos Library’s last two directors also resigned following harassment at work from people who objected to the books with LGBT themes, according to Mr. Walton.


[...] The dispute over books in Jamestown began last November when a patron asked the library to remove the graphic novel “Gender Queer: A Memoir,” Mr. Walton said. Residents began asking for other books with LGBT themes to be pulled, including the graphic novels “Spinning” and “Kiss Number 8.”

Groups of parents unhappy with the materials began coming to the library board’s monthly meetings, demanding the removal of the books, Mr. Walton said. The library declined to remove any books from circulation.

A group called Jamestown Conservatives that disagreed with the library’s decision to keep the books, organized a campaign to defund the library. The group passed out fliers stating the library has many books with LGBT content and “pornographic sexually graphic material,” according to a copy of the flier included in a packet for a library board meeting in June and viewed by The Wall Street Journal. The fliers also said the books were aimed at “very young and impressionable kids.”

I think it's perfectly reasonable for the taxpayers to defund a nonprofit that refuses to listen to their wishes. Their money, their choice.

Quote
The board of the Patmos Library, a nonprofit organization that isn’t run by the town, is working with volunteers to drum up support for a new measure on the November ballot that would restore the library’s funding.

“We are not going to give up,” Mr. Walton said. “We are going to do everything we can to try to prevent those doors from closing.” Should the measure fail, it could shutter the only library in the community.

Meaning, they'd rather close the library than remove the porn, but they want to pin it on conservatives.


If the enemy would rather burn the crops and salt the earth rather than let you take it, maybe you should let them burn the crops and salt the earth, or you'll never win.

Winning is not for those with weak stomachs.

This incident doesn't seem abnormal at all to me. It just looks like incident #XXXXXXXX in the "the left feels entitled to use public funds to push its agenda, no matter what taxpayers think." It seems little different than when the left screams something along the lines of "academic freedom" or "don't say gay" when a parents object to a schoolteacher using A People's History of the US as a primary textbook for 6th graders, or object to kindergarden teachers openly discussing their sex orgies with students.

Perhaps this is too boo-ish, but maybe someone not explicitly left like @obormot or @John Schilling could enlighten me as to either:
1) This trend exists, but this isn't in such trend. For some other reason.
2) I am imagining this trend, schools and libraries are actually to the right of the communities they serve and its merely extremist right wing groups agitating about unobjectionable things.

geoduck

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Re: Woke libraries
« Reply #114 on: August 24, 2022, 09:53:05 pm »
Issue 1) Libraries provide books to people who request them.
This prompted me to storm the Austin Public Library's website in a trollish froth, to register my demand for McWhorter's Woke Racism: How a New Religion Has Betrayed Black America. But I see there are already four copies on order, all to our wealthy, whitebread central library. None to the branches in our demographically black neighborhoods!

obormot

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Re: Woke libraries
« Reply #115 on: August 24, 2022, 10:13:27 pm »
Perhaps this is too boo-ish, but maybe someone not explicitly left like @obormot or @John Schilling could enlighten me as to either:
1) This trend exists, but this isn't in such trend. For some other reason.
2) I am imagining this trend, schools and libraries are actually to the right of the communities they serve and its merely extremist right wing groups agitating about unobjectionable things.

Sorry, what’s the question? Whether libraries tend to be (a) ideological and (b) left-wing? Or did I misunderstand what you’re asking?

clutzy

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Re: Woke libraries
« Reply #116 on: August 25, 2022, 12:18:47 am »
Perhaps this is too boo-ish, but maybe someone not explicitly left like @obormot or @John Schilling could enlighten me as to either:
1) This trend exists, but this isn't in such trend. For some other reason.
2) I am imagining this trend, schools and libraries are actually to the right of the communities they serve and its merely extremist right wing groups agitating about unobjectionable things.

Sorry, what’s the question? Whether libraries tend to be (a) ideological and (b) left-wing? Or did I misunderstand what you’re asking?

If you don't think libraries are left of the communities they serve, generally, then you would answer 2. Yes.

But if you think libraries are left of their communities (as are public schools and some other services where this crops up occasionally like public services), but libraries should be allowed to be havens of left wing indoctrination while schools should not, you would articulate an answer along #1.

albatross11

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Re: Woke libraries
« Reply #117 on: August 25, 2022, 12:22:13 am »
I've always been suspicious of people who say "homosexuality is a lifestyle choice", since some of the nonsense I've put up with from various women, just for the sake of sleeping with them, indicates there's something more animal at the core.
I want to isolate and amplify this point, because it's something that absolutely baffles me about the narrative of woke media grooming our children into homosexuality. I could be persuaded that Trans is the new Goth for the high school set, apart from any incidence of whatever might constitute actual trans-ness. But the implied theory of sexuality as socially conditioned, apparently fully fluid, and somehow divorced from one of the basest instincts we have, seems very...impersonal. Is that what it was like for y'all? Because in hindsight, the way I leaned was always obvious--and it wasn't socially-conditioned.

This is how it felt for me, too, but I don't have unlimited faith in introspection to answer the question.
...that in order to understand what someone is telling you, it is necessary for you to assume the person is being truthful, then imagine what could be true about it.

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clutzy

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Re: Woke libraries
« Reply #118 on: August 25, 2022, 12:36:35 am »
I've always been suspicious of people who say "homosexuality is a lifestyle choice", since some of the nonsense I've put up with from various women, just for the sake of sleeping with them, indicates there's something more animal at the core.
I want to isolate and amplify this point, because it's something that absolutely baffles me about the narrative of woke media grooming our children into homosexuality. I could be persuaded that Trans is the new Goth for the high school set, apart from any incidence of whatever might constitute actual trans-ness. But the implied theory of sexuality as socially conditioned, apparently fully fluid, and somehow divorced from one of the basest instincts we have, seems very...impersonal. Is that what it was like for y'all? Because in hindsight, the way I leaned was always obvious--and it wasn't socially-conditioned.

This is how it felt for me, too, but I don't have unlimited faith in introspection to answer the question.

To me, I think there is ample evidence that we can glean from the Catholic church and Boy Scouts scandals. Almost all the offenders were repeating a behavior that had occurred to them. Then you also look at higher profile men like George Takei talking about their experience of being 13 and having sex with an older man. And so it really starts to look like a learned behavior, for at least a lot of them. And it makes sense intuitively. Homosexuality has very low heritability, and isn't obviously buffing fitness in any way. The gay uncle hypothesis seems absurd on its face, for example, because we see childless men are the lowest in civic contribution of just about any subgroup. 

Plus, if you had a straight guy doing this to 13 year old girls you know the parents would go insane and he'd end up in the clink pretty quickly. So there is reason for heightened scrutiny regardless.

obormot

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Re: Woke libraries
« Reply #119 on: August 25, 2022, 12:47:48 am »
Perhaps this is too boo-ish, but maybe someone not explicitly left like @obormot or @John Schilling could enlighten me as to either:
1) This trend exists, but this isn't in such trend. For some other reason.
2) I am imagining this trend, schools and libraries are actually to the right of the communities they serve and its merely extremist right wing groups agitating about unobjectionable things.

Sorry, what’s the question? Whether libraries tend to be (a) ideological and (b) left-wing? Or did I misunderstand what you’re asking?

If you don't think libraries are left of the communities they serve, generally, then you would answer 2. Yes.

But if you think libraries are left of their communities (as are public schools and some other services where this crops up occasionally like public services), but libraries should be allowed to be havens of left wing indoctrination while schools should not, you would articulate an answer along #1.

I see. Well, I think libraries are obviously to the left of the average of their communities (it would be difficult to be otherwise, really; indeed I’m not sure how the reverse situation could ever come to exist, in today’s America). However, I don’t think I’d call any of the libraries I’ve had any experience with “havens of left-wing indoctrination”. I think that they shouldn’t be allowed to be such things, to be clear; but also, they (currently) aren’t.

I don’t know how you’d categorize that answer, but there you have it.

Trofim_Lysenko

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Re: Woke libraries
« Reply #120 on: August 25, 2022, 01:00:04 am »
I want to isolate and amplify this point, because it's something that absolutely baffles me about the narrative of woke media grooming our children into homosexuality. I could be persuaded that Trans is the new Goth for the high school set, apart from any incidence of whatever might constitute actual trans-ness. But the implied theory of sexuality as socially conditioned, apparently fully fluid, and somehow divorced from one of the basest instincts we have, seems very...impersonal. Is that what it was like for y'all? Because in hindsight, the way I leaned was always obvious--and it wasn't socially-conditioned.

To put @albatross11 's point in rather stronger terms, what empirical evidence (that is, evidence that can be measured and verified in a repeatable way by an outside observer) do you have for believing that the combination of memory of one's early childhood + introspection can be trusted to tell us to what extent we are shaped by our environment and inputs?

This is before we even get into the evidence from both extant cultures other than our own and historical cultures that would seem to point squarely in the direction that human sexuality is indeed largely socially conditioned.

At the philosophical level, I am actually fully in favor of public libraries having controversial works on their shelves to serve the various minority interests (for all values of minority, mind you) in their community. I would say there's nothing illegitimate about a community deciding otherwise, but I'd vote against defunding a library on those grounds and I'd rather they keep both the woke books and the anti-woke books on their shelves.

At the object level, I actually skimmed this comic on my lunch break today and I find the labelling of it as "pornographic" rather silly. There are two panels of simulated oral sex using a strap on, drawn not particularly sexily and with the narrator/author commenting how much they didn't enjoy the experience and found it a let down from their having-a-penis fantasy, even with a supportive and willing partner, since they couldn't feel anything.

That said, I can definitely see why someone concerned about what their child is reading wouldn't want them exposed to it. And if it was stocked in the children's section I'd question that choice. But AFAICT that wasn't the case. So the answer here is, IMO, "If you want to control your child's media intake, don't let your child have an adult library card that lets them check out materials without you", which I had thought is pretty much inside the Overton Window. This probably gets muddy around teenagers, but that also gets into questions of ages of majority and such.

Anyway, bottom line I am basically on team "book is fine and I generally think libraries should have controversial material anyway on principle", applied neutrally...but I think you are privileging your own sense of things you cannot possibly know about yourself way, way, WAY too highly, Geoduck, and doing so over more reliable evidence that points the other way.

clutzy

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Re: Woke libraries
« Reply #121 on: August 25, 2022, 01:12:53 am »

I see. Well, I think libraries are obviously to the left of the average of their communities (it would be difficult to be otherwise, really; indeed I’m not sure how the reverse situation could ever come to exist, in today’s America). However, I don’t think I’d call any of the libraries I’ve had any experience with “havens of left-wing indoctrination”. I think that they shouldn’t be allowed to be such things, to be clear; but also, they (currently) aren’t.

I don’t know how you’d categorize that answer, but there you have it.

The top upcoming event at CPL is "Queer Radical Fair" I can't really see that as anything other than an attempt at indoctrination.  If you go to the "teen picks" section, you have:

Two lesbian mangas.
A book wherein all the women were sexually assaulted.
A graphic novel about 3 teen girls, the main character has a secret she struggles to tell her friends. The description doesn't tell us what it is, but we can probably guess.
A Medusa book where she grapples with her rape, among other things.
Two Pennsylvania trans boys.
Two rich white boys get away with murder.
Queer Ducks
Art Camp with  a minority girl who's BFF attempted suicide.
And a genuinely possibly interesting book about being Jewish under communist rule.

Tough to think this isn't indoctrination, or something similar. These are the books that are going to be prominently displayed. Recommended by teens asking for recommendations, often put on lists as "options" for book reports, etc.

Does this make you re-assess? Or are libraries not like schools in some way to you, in that they should have greater leeway?

Humphrey_Appleby

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Re: Woke libraries
« Reply #122 on: August 25, 2022, 01:38:08 am »
@clutzy I don't dispute what you say but I wonder if this is nutpicking. This doesn't seem representative of the public library any place I've lived.

Matt J

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Re: Woke libraries
« Reply #123 on: August 25, 2022, 01:38:43 am »
A question for people with kids, say, between the ages of 6 and 16.

Did your kids ever go to a library on their own volition (not part of a school trip and not you just bringing them there)? Did they ever express a desire to go and spend time in a library?

Both my girls liked going to the library when they were younger.  I used to take them at their request, but we never lived close enough for them to go on their own until they started driving.

My youngest turned 17 this year.   This spring she was going to the library to study.  The last times, some man she described as 'a thirty year old' kept talking to her and would not take "I'm studying here" as a hint to leave her alone.  One of the staff tried to intervene to no avail.  My girl has not been back since.

obormot

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Re: Woke libraries
« Reply #124 on: August 25, 2022, 01:57:19 am »

I see. Well, I think libraries are obviously to the left of the average of their communities (it would be difficult to be otherwise, really; indeed I’m not sure how the reverse situation could ever come to exist, in today’s America). However, I don’t think I’d call any of the libraries I’ve had any experience with “havens of left-wing indoctrination”. I think that they shouldn’t be allowed to be such things, to be clear; but also, they (currently) aren’t.

I don’t know how you’d categorize that answer, but there you have it.

The top upcoming event at CPL is "Queer Radical Fair" I can't really see that as anything other than an attempt at indoctrination.  If you go to the "teen picks" section, you have:

Two lesbian mangas.
A book wherein all the women were sexually assaulted.
A graphic novel about 3 teen girls, the main character has a secret she struggles to tell her friends. The description doesn't tell us what it is, but we can probably guess.
A Medusa book where she grapples with her rape, among other things.
Two Pennsylvania trans boys.
Two rich white boys get away with murder.
Queer Ducks
Art Camp with  a minority girl who's BFF attempted suicide.
And a genuinely possibly interesting book about being Jewish under communist rule.

Tough to think this isn't indoctrination, or something similar. These are the books that are going to be prominently displayed. Recommended by teens asking for recommendations, often put on lists as "options" for book reports, etc.

Does this make you re-assess? Or are libraries not like schools in some way to you, in that they should have greater leeway?

Yeah, it does make me re-assess somewhat. I do wonder if it’s nutpicking, as @Humphrey_Appleby said… well, let’s take a look at my local libraries, I guess.

BPL website right now has “staff picks” highlighted from the “career” section which include a bunch of generic self-help job-hunting books, plus The autism-friendly guide to self-employment, plus Demanding more: why diversity and inclusion don’t happen and what you can do about it.

We’ve got “featured events” which include: free summer meals; yoga and meditation; “Teach-In & Conversation: The Sexual and Reproductive Health Landscape in New York State”; “Storytime in the Garden” (minimal details given, seems generic); free school supplies; “An Underwater Musical Adventure”.

Going to the events calendar page also reveals “CBH Talk - Open Eyes: Kids, Banned Books, and the War on Reading”. This event is specifically aimed at adults, not kids. Other events include free screenings of the Metropolitan Opera, and a course on small business financing.

The featured “2022 Book Prize” reading lists (available on the front page, if you click on them) are also pretty explicitly progressive (racism, poverty, and climate change seem to be the topics, mostly).

So, definitely left-aligned, but not anything like what you cited. Is Chicago more left-wing than Brooklyn…? I don’t know, maybe. I’m not convinced that I’d call this stuff “indoctrination”, certainly. To be honest, I don’t think that I’ve ever interacted with these sorts of things—events, featured reading lists, etc.—in all my years of using the library. All that stuff just passed me by. I would think that it’s the same for most kids.

Humphrey_Appleby

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Re: Woke libraries
« Reply #125 on: August 25, 2022, 03:29:31 am »
For the sake of thoroughness, I looked up the list of upcoming events at my local public library. I see a bunch of story hours (no woke modifiers), a woodworking class, some English literacy stuff, a chess club, a go club...nothing remotely objectionable.

I think this is also where I bring up my grandfather, who became a penniless refugee at twelve, worked as a farm laborer for a while, and educated himself at the local public library. If his village hadn't had one, he might have died a farm laborer, and I wouldn't have been born. Admittedly, that was not on this continent, but it leaves me favorably disposed to public libraries.

I suppose the question is, which library is representative of libraries as a class?

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Re: Woke libraries
« Reply #126 on: August 25, 2022, 05:36:22 am »

clutzy

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Re: Woke libraries
« Reply #127 on: August 25, 2022, 05:48:55 am »
A Medusa book where she grapples with her rape, among other things.
Art Camp with  a minority girl who's BFF attempted suicide.

I can see why you might not like the others, but why do you consider these two to be "indoctrination"?

They aren't horrible, if those were the only books recommended, or they were included with a bunch of books about men in wars, and traditional romance novels, I wouldn't have bothered making the list. The point is that, even when a book isn't facially indoctrination, they still picked woker options. POC, Art, mental health issues. That codes left. Dealing with rape (a hetero one by a god) elevates the idea of rape as a common occurrence in the mind of the reader, which is a feminist talking point (rape culture).

Contrast this with what teens actually like: https://www.amazon.com/Best-Sellers-Teen-Young-Adult/zgbs/digital-text/15195316011
A bunch of female romance novels, and almost all the comics/mangas are male-badass coded. None of those options are even on the list. If you insist on being a bit more highbrow (they don't I e-checked out one of the lesbian mangas to make sure), Neil Gaiman's The Ocean at the End of the Lane deals with complicated subjects like death, growing up, horror, etc, and you know, people actually like it.

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Re: Woke libraries
« Reply #128 on: August 25, 2022, 05:53:47 am »
Contrast this with what teens actually like: https://www.amazon.com/Best-Sellers-Teen-Young-Adult/zgbs/digital-text/15195316011
A bunch of female romance novels, and almost all the comics/mangas are male-badass coded. None of those options are even on the list. If you insist on being a bit more highbrow (they don't I e-checked out one of the lesbian mangas to make sure), Neil Gaiman's The Ocean at the End of the Lane deals with complicated subjects like death, growing up, horror, etc, and you know, people actually like it.

I think that's probably more of the old "arty" vs "popular" conflict.

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Re: Woke libraries
« Reply #129 on: August 25, 2022, 06:07:11 am »
I do wonder if it’s nutpicking, as @Humphrey_Appleby said… well, let’s take a look at my local libraries, I guess.

BPL website right now has “staff picks” highlighted from the “career” section which include a bunch of generic self-help job-hunting books, plus The autism-friendly guide to self-employment, plus Demanding more: why diversity and inclusion don’t happen and what you can do about it.

My closest local Brooklyn library is the one in Greenpoint which as of this year became the Greenpoint Library and Environmental Education Center, which serves as "both a full-service library and a community hub for environmental awareness, activism and education."

Their listed after-school-time activity for today is a session called "Letter Writing to Incarcerated Folks" described as follows:
Quote
Please join North Brooklyn Mutual Aid, BPL's Justice Initiatives, and the Greenpoint Library to connect with incarcerated folks through letter writing.

All letter writing materials will be provided along with guidelines on how to be a supportive correspondent and how to navigate Department of Corrections mailing restrictions.

We will be connecting with pen pals provided by Black and Pink, a prison abolitionist organization dedicated to abolishing the criminal punishment system and liberating LGBTQIA2S+ people and people living with HIV/AIDS who are affected by that system through advocacy, support, and organizing.

Hmph...
« Last Edit: August 25, 2022, 06:19:09 am by Glen Raphael »

clutzy

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Re: Woke libraries
« Reply #130 on: August 25, 2022, 06:19:27 am »
Contrast this with what teens actually like: https://www.amazon.com/Best-Sellers-Teen-Young-Adult/zgbs/digital-text/15195316011
A bunch of female romance novels, and almost all the comics/mangas are male-badass coded. None of those options are even on the list. If you insist on being a bit more highbrow (they don't I e-checked out one of the lesbian mangas to make sure), Neil Gaiman's The Ocean at the End of the Lane deals with complicated subjects like death, growing up, horror, etc, and you know, people actually like it.

I think that's probably more of the old "arty" vs "popular" conflict.

I mean, maybe, but we are talking about 3/10 recommendations not being super left wing (possibly, they could still be if you read them), including a Pennsylvania trans story that certainly almost no one wants to read.  Its a list for teens that contains ~zero books an average (or average adjacent) teenage boy would be interested in reading, ~3 books some teenage girls (but probably not a majority even in Chicago) might want to read (or pick as their book report book) and literally a book named "Queer Ducks". Even in a place where 80% of people voted for Biden, these book selections, in aggregate, are far to the left of the people. This is a book selection for a 99% Biden place, where 70% of the voters actually selected "None of these" in the 2020 DNC primary because none of the candidates were extreme enough for them.

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Re: Woke libraries
« Reply #131 on: August 25, 2022, 06:34:13 am »
I mean, the story you recount obviously fits into the heuristic (probably not quite a “rule”) that I suggest. This woman didn’t want her kids to learn about other religions, because she knew perfectly well that as soon as they started reading “comparative religion” material (among other things), they’d realize that their mother was an absolute nutcase; and once they realized that, they’d also start questioning the rest of what she’d taught them, and that’d be the start of their journey toward being sane people who are capable of thinking for themselves.

This is a good thing, obviously! We want people whose parents are nuts to realize this fact, as early as possible, before their brains are irretrievably warped. This is very much in the public interest.

I think Fish's preoccupation was not so much what other people agree is in the public interest as the question of whether she could agree on what action by the government is appropriate.  In particular, he felt that actual free speech and free exercise rules were sort of smugly incoherent or dishonest. The legal system claimed to be totally neutral with regard to religious belief—in a way that it implied every citizen ought to be able to endorse—yet it didn't seem to take some beliefs seriously, and according to Fish's analysis substituted its own version of what people aggrieved by, for example, religious pluralism or diversity ought to believe for what they actually did believe.

A more practical question is about the scope of this woman's political rights, for example, not to have her taxes pay for undermining her beliefs.

Quote
Quote
By the way, I know someone who converted to a religion as a result of hearing a brief academic description of it during a religious studies class that was taught from a secular viewpoint. I don't mean to suggest that that is common or anything.

Yes, of course you can find extremely rare examples of all sorts of things. (And was the person in your anecdote a child, even? Or an adult?)

She was a young adult taking a religious studies class at a university.

obormot

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Re: Woke libraries
« Reply #132 on: August 25, 2022, 10:59:41 am »
I mean, the story you recount obviously fits into the heuristic (probably not quite a “rule”) that I suggest. This woman didn’t want her kids to learn about other religions, because she knew perfectly well that as soon as they started reading “comparative religion” material (among other things), they’d realize that their mother was an absolute nutcase; and once they realized that, they’d also start questioning the rest of what she’d taught them, and that’d be the start of their journey toward being sane people who are capable of thinking for themselves.

This is a good thing, obviously! We want people whose parents are nuts to realize this fact, as early as possible, before their brains are irretrievably warped. This is very much in the public interest.

I think Fish's preoccupation was not so much what other people agree is in the public interest as the question of whether she could agree on what action by the government is appropriate.  In particular, he felt that actual free speech and free exercise rules were sort of smugly incoherent or dishonest. The legal system claimed to be totally neutral with regard to religious belief—in a way that it implied every citizen ought to be able to endorse—yet it didn't seem to take some beliefs seriously, and according to Fish's analysis substituted its own version of what people aggrieved by, for example, religious pluralism or diversity ought to believe for what they actually did believe.

I don’t see it, frankly. Why do we particularly care whether the woman agreed that the government’s action was appropriate? You can construct all sorts of absurdities like this, simply because some people are insane. Yes, the legal system doesn’t take some beliefs seriously. That’s because some beliefs are deranged/psychotic/etc.

I mean, suppose someone believes, for whatever reason, that it’s a dire sin if people gather together in large groups—that this offends God. Doesn’t the government’s insistence on protecting the right to freedom of assembly then ignore this belief? Yeah, it does, and it should! What if someone believes that they should be allowed to punch random people in the street, for religious reasons, and that any abrogation of their right to do so is an offense against their faith? Don’t the laws against assault ignore this belief? They sure do, and rightly!

You can’t actually have belief neutrality if you want to do or accomplish anything of any sort whatsoever. I don’t really know why anyone would ever think otherwise. The American legal system’s claim of neutrality with regard to religious belief obviously applies only to religious belief that doesn’t interfere with our ability to have any kind of working society. (For instance, I don’t think that the Founding Fathers ever intended for the First Amendment to refer to neutrality with regard to religiously motivated honor killings, murder of apostates from Islam, or any of the other sorts of barbarities practiced by people in many Third World countries.)

Quote
A more practical question is about the scope of this woman's political rights, for example, not to have her taxes pay for undermining her beliefs.

Nonexistent, I should think?

Again, you can construct any kind of absurd conflict in this way. “My beliefs are that God did not intend for people to travel far from home, therefore I refuse to let my taxes fund the interstate highway system!” The weight of a claim like that should be nil.

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Re: Woke libraries
« Reply #133 on: August 25, 2022, 11:49:25 am »
I'm going to go through some more library systems and just report what I see. First one up is the LA Public Library. I will try to pick some suburban and small town libraries as well, not just major metro areas, though.

LA Public Library:

Main Page: "Latinx Heritage" material and events prominently promoted (It's called Latinx Heritage Month" if you click through to calendar, but not ON the front page), BLM support statement linked on the front page but not displayed (you'd have to actually click on the "BLM" link and it's not very big). The recommendations are:

- Magic Realism story about an asian woman in 1930s fantasy Hollywood dealing with systemic racism with strong LGBT themes.

-Appalachian would-be librarian struggling with misogyny and racism.

-A story about how smart octopi are.

-Gay coming of age story.

-Lesbian romance that is also "a primer for readers on a brief, but wonderful, history of the LGBTQ community over the last five decades. She illustrates how far, as a culture, we’ve come and how we’re slowly moving to being more inclusive. McQuiston also illustrates the necessity, over the years, for the “found families” that LGBTQ youth have always created and participated in to support each other when family relations are simply unable, or unwilling, to support and accept LGBTQ children.".

-Ai Weiwei's autobiography.

Kids Section: No Drag Queen Story Hour or any other sort of obvious outrage bait events. Pretty vanilla/anodyne, AFAICT. Recommended books are:

-"A boy on the run. A girl determined to find him. A compelling fantasy looks at issues of privilege, protest, and justice."

-An anti-bullying story

-A "have empathy for kids on the autism spectrum" story

-A story about "the importance of respecting boundaries and open communication in friendships, and it will inspire everyone to celebrate their differences!" following an "extra" boy and his sincere but ill-judged attempts to shower affection on a girl who doesn't want it.

-"A big-hearted, beautiful, and funny novel told from multiple viewpoints about neurodiversity, friendship, and community from the award-winning author of The Truth as Told by Mason Buttle, Leslie Connor."

-A breakfast club style story that "starts when six kids have to meet for a weekly chat--by themselves, with no adults to listen in. There, in the room they soon dub the ARTT Room (short for "A Room to Talk"), they discover it's safe to talk about what's bothering them--everything from Esteban's father's deportation and Haley's father's incarceration to Amari's fears of racial profiling and Ashton's adjustment to his changing family fortunes.".

Debatable to what extent this is aimed at kids vs. parents choosing books FOR kids.

Teen Section: Again, pretty anodyne as far as LGBT stuff. "Latinx Mental Health issues" blog and a book review of Circe are highlighted. Book Recommendations are:

-"A-Okay by Jarad Greene is a vulnerable and heartfelt semi-autobiographical middle grade graphic novel about acne, identity, and finding your place." (main character is coming out as "ace/aro")

-Love In English, "A fresh, breakout YA novel that is layered with themes of immigration, cultural identity, and finding your voice in any language."

-Gay romance graphic novel.

-"a revelatory novel about the enclosed world of privilege and silence at an elite boarding school and the unlikely group of friends who dare to challenge the status quo through their writing."

-A book about college application that covers "Why forty years of failed free-market policies have led to skyrocketing tuition and historic levels of student debt, why applying to college has become a bewildering maze and how to find your way to a successful result, Why college costs are more terrifying than you think, How to read beyond the rack rate to negotiate the best financial package with the least debt, and why merit is a myth, but merit aid is essential".

-HS age Lesbian Romance between female quarterback and cheerleader.

-"From renowned Japanese children's author Sachiko Kashiwaba, Temple Alley Summer is a fantastical and mysterious adventure filled with the living dead, magical pearls, and a suspiciously nosy black cat named Kiriko featuring beautiful illustrations from Miho Satake."

-Several Manga (Blue Period, Kageki Shoujo)

-Another coming out style story about an asexual/aromantic teenager.

-"The Lesbian Girl's Guide To Catholic School"

-Squad, a story about a girl who joins the mean girls clique at her new school only to discover they're a werewolf pack that prey on sexually aggressive boys, and also discovers she's falling in love with one of her pack members. "Pretty Little Liars meets Teen Wolf in this sharply funny, and patriarchy-smashing graphic novel from author Maggie Tokuda-Hall and artist Lisa Sterle."

-Youngblood, "For fans of Vampire Diaries and dark academia, two queer teen bloodsuckers at an elite vampire-only boarding school must go up against all of Vampirdom when they uncover a frightening conspiracy on campus."

-Katzenjammer, "American Horror Story meets the dark comedy of Kafka's The Metamorphosis as Cat searches for a way to escape her high school. A tale of family, love, tragedy, and masks--the ones others make for us, and the ones we make for ourselves."

Gotta get ready for work, but next one I'll do will be Cape Girardeau, Missouri, a small-ish midwestern town I used to live in.

Trofim_Lysenko

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Re: Woke libraries
« Reply #134 on: August 25, 2022, 12:07:18 pm »
Nevermind, Next up is Cape Girardeau, Missouri's Public Library, their site is spartan enough that there's not much to say.

They're celebrating their 100 year anniversary so they link to a "100 Years, 100 Books" list with popular fiction every year from 1922-2022, very mainstream selections as far as I can see.

No real effort to push any book lists or recommendations at all. Emphasis instead is on specific services and amenities offered. Same with the Young Adult and Children's sections which are again very sparse, but emphasizing the computers and literacy tools, links to "Explora" for homework help, a Yu-Gi-Oh fan club meeting weekly in the YA corner, etc.

The Blog has a post about Pride Month in June, but that's basically it.

Erusian

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Re: Woke libraries
« Reply #135 on: August 25, 2022, 12:32:49 pm »
Let's see: Spanish and English classes. Movie afternoon (Batman, then a movie called A Better Life that I've never seen). Retro tech AV Club, teaching people about analog technology and vinyl records and stuff. DJing basics. Homework help and a math tutoring program. A history event about a local park. A zine/writing class/club. An intro to library services. Children's story hour (from a textbook called Talking Is Teaching). And guitar classes. Oh and it's used as a testing and vaccination center.

Googling around controversies mostly seems to be about other libraries in state. Googling about banned books just brings up a book that was seen as pro-Communist and containing objective lies from like two decades ago. And someone tried to get the Bible banned and got fawning media attention before being summarily rejected.

They do have Pride Month, Black History Month, and (local) Native American stuff. No idea what the tenor of it is like. They also have small business events and American History Month in July. Most of the news on the page is boring administrative stuff. Twitter is mostly event announcements and milquetoast moderate takes. "Police officer getting shot bad." "Children should read more." "Everyone should be more prepared for emergencies." "More education for more people good (with notes about disparate access)." "Freedom of speech and press good." Etc.

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Re: Woke libraries
« Reply #136 on: August 25, 2022, 12:40:32 pm »

theodoric

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Re: Woke libraries
« Reply #137 on: August 25, 2022, 12:55:50 pm »
I do wonder if it’s nutpicking, as @Humphrey_Appleby said… well, let’s take a look at my local libraries, I guess.

BPL website right now has “staff picks” highlighted from the “career” section which include a bunch of generic self-help job-hunting books, plus The autism-friendly guide to self-employment, plus Demanding more: why diversity and inclusion don’t happen and what you can do about it.

My closest local Brooklyn library is the one in Greenpoint which as of this year became the Greenpoint Library and Environmental Education Center, which serves as "both a full-service library and a community hub for environmental awareness, activism and education."

Their listed after-school-time activity for today is a session called "Letter Writing to Incarcerated Folks" described as follows:
Quote
Please join North Brooklyn Mutual Aid, BPL's Justice Initiatives, and the Greenpoint Library to connect with incarcerated folks through letter writing.

All letter writing materials will be provided along with guidelines on how to be a supportive correspondent and how to navigate Department of Corrections mailing restrictions.

We will be connecting with pen pals provided by Black and Pink, a prison abolitionist organization dedicated to abolishing the criminal punishment system and liberating LGBTQIA2S+ people and people living with HIV/AIDS who are affected by that system through advocacy, support, and organizing.

Hmph...
I don't like the progressive jargon ("prison abolitionist", "LGBTQIA2S+") and I don't want to abolish the crminal punishment system, but writing to imprisoned people doesn't code as "woke" to me. Visit the imprisoned is one of the Christian works of mercy. If I were a parent, I wouldn't mind my kid being involved in this program, while I would object to, eg, drag queen story hour.

TenaciousD.

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Re: Woke libraries
« Reply #138 on: August 25, 2022, 01:25:19 pm »
Nevermind, Next up is Cape Girardeau, Missouri's Public Library, their site is spartan enough that there's not much to say.

They're celebrating their 100 year anniversary so they link to a "100 Years, 100 Books" list with popular fiction every year from 1922-2022, very mainstream selections as far as I can see.

In contrast, the list you posted from LA was all very Current Year. Most of what’s published in any year is dreck, so promoting the flavour of the month so heavily not only smuggles in political bias, but also has an opportunity cost of not promoting high quality books that have been winnowed by the decades. A top 100 list like that might seem boring, but someone who encounters it might be one of xkcd’s lucky 10,000.

A general thought: Curation can provide a lot of value-add, but it comes with non-trivial principal-agent problems.

Also,

Quote
-"The Lesbian Girl's Guide To Catholic School"

Tumblr-grade self-help, or sleazy light novel?
"everything except Rules got shorter and shorter, unless one could hide a bit of one's own when the ruffians went around gathering stuff up "for fair distribution": which meant they got it and we didn't" (from "The Scouring of the Shire")

Randy M

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Re: Woke libraries
« Reply #139 on: August 25, 2022, 01:57:49 pm »
Off topic nit-picking
Quote
-"A-Okay by Jarad Greene is a vulnerable and heartfelt semi-autobiographical middle grade graphic novel about acne, identity, and finding your place." (main character is coming out as "ace/aro")
Do you really need to come out as ace in middle school? I didn't date until college. It was more about being introverted or socially anxious than not liking girls, but it didn't make me particularly stand out. Maybe things are different and 7th grade is all about hooking up today; I doubt it.

Quote
-A book about college application that covers "Why forty years of failed free-market policies have led to skyrocketing tuition and historic levels of student debt, why applying to college has become a bewildering maze and how to find your way to a successful result, Why college costs are more terrifying than you think, How to read beyond the rack rate to negotiate the best financial package with the least debt, and why merit is a myth, but merit aid is essential".
Yeah, free market, that's what's distorting college prices. Looks like some useful advice from someone with an agenda.
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The Nybbler

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Re: Woke libraries
« Reply #140 on: August 25, 2022, 01:58:50 pm »
Also,

Quote
-"The Lesbian Girl's Guide To Catholic School"

Tumblr-grade self-help, or sleazy light novel?

If ever there was a time for this meme, this is it: "¿Por Qué No Los Dos?"

EchoChaos

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Re: Woke libraries
« Reply #141 on: August 25, 2022, 01:59:39 pm »
Also,

Quote
-"The Lesbian Girl's Guide To Catholic School"

Tumblr-grade self-help, or sleazy light novel?

If ever there was a time for this meme, this is it: "¿Por Qué No Los Dos?"

Dammit, that's MY line.  Faster on the trigger.

This ungainly fowl

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Re: Woke libraries
« Reply #142 on: August 25, 2022, 02:13:39 pm »
Quote
-"A-Okay by Jarad Greene is a vulnerable and heartfelt semi-autobiographical middle grade graphic novel about acne, identity, and finding your place." (main character is coming out as "ace/aro")
Do you really need to come out as ace in middle school? I didn't date until college. It was more about being introverted or socially anxious than not liking girls, but it didn't make me particularly stand out. Maybe things are different and 7th grade is all about hooking up today; I doubt it.

It seems plausible to me (and not just today, but in the past too). 7th grade would be around puberty, or a bit past it. Even if people aren't "hooking up" outright, they'll presumably be talking a lot about romance, and there is pressure to conform.

smocc

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Re: Woke libraries
« Reply #143 on: August 25, 2022, 02:21:05 pm »
Yeah, free market, that's what's distorting college prices. Looks like some useful advice from someone with an agenda.

Ha ha, I initially read that as "failed-free-market" --- ie the market failed to be free --- because the alternative made so little sense.

Randy M

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Re: Woke libraries
« Reply #144 on: August 25, 2022, 02:57:09 pm »
Quote
-"A-Okay by Jarad Greene is a vulnerable and heartfelt semi-autobiographical middle grade graphic novel about acne, identity, and finding your place." (main character is coming out as "ace/aro")
Do you really need to come out as ace in middle school? I didn't date until college. It was more about being introverted or socially anxious than not liking girls, but it didn't make me particularly stand out. Maybe things are different and 7th grade is all about hooking up today; I doubt it.

It seems plausible to me (and not just today, but in the past too). 7th grade would be around puberty, or a bit past it. Even if people aren't "hooking up" outright, they'll presumably be talking a lot about romance, and there is pressure to conform.
I would worry that there's more harm done in telling a kid they're some kind of minority sexual category just because they aren't trying to date at 13 yo. Do kids really need a protected identity label to hide behind to stand up to peer pressure?
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Conrad

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Re: Woke libraries
« Reply #145 on: August 25, 2022, 03:15:49 pm »
I would worry that there's more harm done in telling a kid they're some kind of minority sexual category just because they aren't trying to date at 13 yo. Do kids really need a protected identity label to hide behind to stand up to peer pressure?

Is that even a thing these days? With all the anti-bullying stuff, I was under the impression the kids are all pussies are now.
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Randy M

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Re: Woke libraries
« Reply #146 on: August 25, 2022, 03:23:45 pm »
I would worry that there's more harm done in telling a kid they're some kind of minority sexual category just because they aren't trying to date at 13 yo. Do kids really need a protected identity label to hide behind to stand up to peer pressure?

Is that even a thing these days? With all the anti-bullying stuff, I was under the impression the kids are all pussies are now.
I think explicit bullying is a subset of peer pressure. Which itself is probably a bad term because it implies external motivation; people generally want to fit in, even if the 'in' in question doesn't try to exert influence.

Avoiding doing so is an important skill; maybe having a snowflake term for every way you are non-mainstream is an effective strategy, but it seems a crutch to me.
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Re: Woke libraries
« Reply #147 on: August 25, 2022, 03:24:50 pm »
I would worry that there's more harm done in telling a kid they're some kind of minority sexual category just because they aren't trying to date at 13 yo. Do kids really need a protected identity label to hide behind to stand up to peer pressure?

Stray thought: "religious" used to fit as a protected identity label to hide behind to stand up to peer pressure to date other than as a search for marriage.

I had religious colleagues at high school who opted out of sexualized behavior to the very limited extent I know of, to the point of getting school uniform exemptions to wear long skirts. Nobody mistreated them because of it, again to the very limited extent I know of.

Trofim_Lysenko

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Re: Woke libraries
« Reply #148 on: August 25, 2022, 03:35:25 pm »
Tumblr-grade self-help, or sleazy light novel?

Dunno about sleazy, looks like your classic bildungsroman sort of thing but for the intersectional set. Also, I mentally translated the title for some reason, it's "The Lesbiana's Guide to Catholic School."

From the publisher:

Quote from: Back Cover Blurb
Sixteen-year-old Yamilet Flores prefers to be known for her killer eyeliner, not for being one of the only Mexican kids at her new, mostly white, very rich Catholic school. But at least here no one knows she’s gay, and Yami intends to keep it that way.

After being outed by her crush and ex-best friend before transferring to Slayton Catholic, Yami has new priorities: keep her brother out of trouble, make her mom proud, and, most importantly, don’t fall in love. Granted, she’s never been great at any of those things, but that’s a problem for Future Yami.

The thing is, it’s hard to fake being straight when Bo, the only openly queer girl at school, is so annoyingly perfect. And smart. And talented. And cute. So cute. Either way, Yami isn’t going to make the same mistake again. If word got back to her mom, she could face a lot worse than rejection. So she’ll have to start asking, WWSGD: What would a straight girl do?

Told in a captivating voice that is by turns hilarious, vulnerable, and searingly honest, The Lesbiana’s Guide to Catholic School explores the joys and heartaches of living your full truth out loud.

I think it's worth noting that if a library is trying to select more recent books, then to riff off of @TenaciousD there's going to naturally be a lot of #CurrentThing bias. This os ESPECIALLY true for YA Publishing which is sort of notorious at this point for having been thoroughly ideologically captured in recent years.

I will try to get several more data points including more rural communities like Cape, suburbs, and small cities from different regions, but my prediction is that Cape's spartan and very neutral/boring site is probably pretty representative of "Small Town America",  as LA's and Chicago's are of major metropolitan systems.

I predict a lot of the CW clash will be in "purple" Suburbs and Small cities, but we'll see. There are obvious implications for where people choose to raise their kids depending on what they're optimizing for, though job availability constrains that in a lot of cases.
« Last Edit: August 25, 2022, 03:49:29 pm by Trofim_Lysenko »

Needlessly Skeptical

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Re: Woke libraries
« Reply #149 on: August 25, 2022, 03:38:31 pm »
Quote
I would worry that there's more harm done in telling a kid they're some kind of minority sexual category just because they aren't trying to date at 13 yo. Do kids really need a protected identity label to hide behind to stand up to peer pressure?

Is that what it means?  I thought it was closer to has no sexual desire.  Trying to date is something else entirely.  But I’m not up to date with the lingo so salt, grains, etc

Randy M

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Re: Woke libraries
« Reply #150 on: August 25, 2022, 03:48:13 pm »
Quote
I would worry that there's more harm done in telling a kid they're some kind of minority sexual category just because they aren't trying to date at 13 yo. Do kids really need a protected identity label to hide behind to stand up to peer pressure?

Is that what it means?  I thought it was closer to has no sexual desire.  Trying to date is something else entirely.  But I’m not up to date with the lingo so salt, grains, etc
I'm no expert. And I think Ace and Aro are different terms.
But I'm starting from the assumption that sexual desire--even if not fully understood--is one of the motivating elements to trying to date. Feeling an urge to be with the attractive members for romantic purposes, you ask them to hang out. Because you have desires to be around them, even if at that age actual sex is probably not the proximal goal.

This comes to people at various levels and at different ages each; the reason a book premised on "coming out Aro/Ace in middle school" seems weird to me is that not having romantic or sexual inclination at that time seems well within normal variation, based on introspection and remembered observation. And I ended up pretty square in this regard at least.

Anyway, on the broader topic, library near me doesn't have anything ideological either way on it's website, unless it's buried in a link to a list of award winning books or something. Doesn't mean nothing unobjectionable happens discretely, or that I'd be happy necessarily with my kids reading everything on the shelves (though they try), but I don't believe I should have any particular concern.
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The Nybbler

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Re: Woke libraries
« Reply #151 on: August 25, 2022, 03:54:53 pm »
Is that even a thing these days? With all the anti-bullying stuff, I was under the impression the kids are all pussies are now.

All right, now I have a mental picture of you. 


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Re: Woke libraries
« Reply #152 on: August 25, 2022, 04:09:07 pm »
Is that even a thing these days? With all the anti-bullying stuff, I was under the impression the kids are all pussies are now.

All right, now I have a mental picture of you. 



Only took, what, like 6 years?



So I checked out my local library's website, and their "staff picks" for recommended books of the month, and I was pleasantly surprised. There's 20 books on there, and they all look like the sorts of things humans would want to read. There's romance, thrillers, mystery, sci-fi, fantasy, a photo travelogue, young-woman-deals-with-life contemporary comedy-drama type stuff, there's a book by John McWhorter, somebody picked Thrawn by Timothy Zahn, and only one book is gay.

...then I got down to "Teens." For the five books recommended for teens, it's:

1) gay
2) novel about a feminist civil rights activist
3) gay
4) gay
5) normalish girl coming of age novel

Sigh.
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Re: Woke libraries
« Reply #153 on: August 25, 2022, 04:13:10 pm »
Tumblr-grade self-help, or sleazy light novel?

Dunno about sleazy, looks like your classic bildungsroman sort of thing but for the intersectional set. Also, I mentally translated the title for some reason, it's "The Lesbiana's Guide to Catholic School."

"The Catholic's Guide to Lesbian School: The Adventures of a Newman Center".
"That’s a work only for Christian folk, and not for such a pack of trolls," -- East of the Sun and West of the Moon

John Schilling

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Re: Woke libraries
« Reply #154 on: August 25, 2022, 04:41:22 pm »
...then I got down to "Teens." For the five books recommended for teens, it's:

1) gay
2) novel about a feminist civil rights activist
3) gay
4) gay
5) normalish girl coming of age novel

Sigh.

I would expect that any teenager that isn't already a lost cause in this regard, is cynical enough that they're not going to be paying attention to the "teens" recommendations.

They might be getting some of the tweens with that nonsense, though.

Conrad

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Re: Woke libraries
« Reply #155 on: August 25, 2022, 04:52:41 pm »
They might be getting some of the tweens with that nonsense, though.

Or maybe they're trying to bring back bullying, and letting all the kids know that READING IS FOR QUEERS!!!
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Kay

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Re: Woke libraries
« Reply #156 on: August 25, 2022, 05:25:27 pm »
And if that library allows kids to learn things their parents don't want them to learn then this is a feature, not a bug.

Who exactly do you think you are deciding what things somebody else's kid should learn?

How about we stock the library with white supremacist recruiting pamphlets? If the librarians are handing those out to the kids against the parents' wishes, that's a feature, not a bug, right?

You really think teens would be more interested in white supremacy than porn?

DnDEmerald

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Re: Woke libraries
« Reply #157 on: August 25, 2022, 05:29:21 pm »
And if that library allows kids to learn things their parents don't want them to learn then this is a feature, not a bug.

Who exactly do you think you are deciding what things somebody else's kid should learn?

How about we stock the library with white supremacist recruiting pamphlets? If the librarians are handing those out to the kids against the parents' wishes, that's a feature, not a bug, right?

You really think teens would be more interested in white supremacy than porn?

If librarians were activists who offered teens BDSM porn with white masters, the only reason they might not be interested is if vanilla/a kink they like better porn is easily available.
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Trofim_Lysenko

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Re: Woke libraries
« Reply #158 on: August 25, 2022, 05:32:41 pm »
And if that library allows kids to learn things their parents don't want them to learn then this is a feature, not a bug.

Who exactly do you think you are deciding what things somebody else's kid should learn?

How about we stock the library with white supremacist recruiting pamphlets? If the librarians are handing those out to the kids against the parents' wishes, that's a feature, not a bug, right?

You really think teens would be more interested in white supremacy than porn?

Depends which is more edgy and taboo as far as their parents/teachers are concerned.

Kay

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Re: Woke libraries
« Reply #159 on: August 25, 2022, 05:35:42 pm »
Earlier in this very thread, someone posted about attempts to ban Harry Potter. (And not because of Rowling's TERFism or whatever). Nothing is unobjectionable to everyone.

If the majority of the town doesn't want their kids reading Harry Potter, why should their tax dollars be buying copies to lend to their kids? Isn't this how democracy is sort of supposed to work?

This.

But, to be fair, if the town's divided, the library could hold a referendum.


That is going to be one sure way to boost Harry Potter sales...

Conrad

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Re: Woke libraries
« Reply #160 on: August 25, 2022, 05:36:56 pm »
You really think teens would be more interested in white supremacy than porn?

Than gay porn? Yes. I am not interested in white supremacy, but I am more interested in white supremacy than I am in gay porn.
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Paul Brinkley

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Re: Woke libraries
« Reply #161 on: August 25, 2022, 06:16:13 pm »
You really think teens would be more interested in white supremacy than porn?

"Pornhub: The Real Reason the Klan Died"

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Re: Woke libraries
« Reply #162 on: August 25, 2022, 08:07:13 pm »
A general thought: Curation can provide a lot of value-add, but it comes with non-trivial principal-agent problems.

So very much.

The people posting local library reasonable activities - my local libraries also have a bunch of reasonable activities.  Even the ones I'm pretty sure aren't reasonable have reasonable sounding names, or at least they did until the last few years, so the parents will send their kids.  Did you go and skim the books being pushed, and note the change over the years?  Do you pay enough attention to what books have been removed from the shelves?  These things have influence, and it is much easier to get away with them in a community that would disapprove if it understood than openly having a sex related activity for kids.


Also, details removed so as not to dox, but our local school district is in damage control mode because a teacher read a book obviously pushing becoming trans to elementary school kids, and did other stuff along those lines.  The school district puts out a mix of we don't deny anything specific, but people shouldn't make ignorant accusations, shouldn't read ignorant accusations, everything we did was in accordance with the inclusivity guidelines of our district, and we totally support inclusiveness.  We'll see how much this gets parents to ask questions like 'just what books are being pushed in the elementary school libraries and classrooms?'

Conrad

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Re: Woke libraries
« Reply #163 on: August 25, 2022, 08:19:00 pm »
Also, details removed so as not to dox, but our local school district is in damage control mode because a teacher read a book obviously pushing becoming trans to elementary school kids, and did other stuff along those lines.  The school district puts out a mix of we don't deny anything specific, but people shouldn't make ignorant accusations, shouldn't read ignorant accusations, everything we did was in accordance with the inclusivity guidelines of our district, and we totally support inclusiveness.  We'll see how much this gets parents to ask questions like 'just what books are being pushed in the elementary school libraries and classrooms?'

It's like Munchausen syndrome by proxy or something. The teacher desperately wants to have a gay/trans kid in their class whose parents don't approve so they can be the hero teacher who "saves" a kid from their "abusive" parents and tell all the other teachers about it and win awards, and if they don't have such a gay/trans kid they'll make a gay/trans kid, by damnit.
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clutzy

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Re: Woke libraries
« Reply #164 on: August 25, 2022, 09:11:51 pm »

Only took, what, like 6 years?



So I checked out my local library's website, and their "staff picks" for recommended books of the month, and I was pleasantly surprised. There's 20 books on there, and they all look like the sorts of things humans would want to read. There's romance, thrillers, mystery, sci-fi, fantasy, a photo travelogue, young-woman-deals-with-life contemporary comedy-drama type stuff, there's a book by John McWhorter, somebody picked Thrawn by Timothy Zahn, and only one book is gay.

...then I got down to "Teens." For the five books recommended for teens, it's:

1) gay
2) novel about a feminist civil rights activist
3) gay
4) gay
5) normalish girl coming of age novel

Sigh.

The "Honcho" has always been key.

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Re: Woke libraries
« Reply #165 on: August 25, 2022, 09:17:24 pm »
A general thought: Curation can provide a lot of value-add, but it comes with non-trivial principal-agent problems.

Thank you for this thought—it seems like an extremely useful way to think about the matter!

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Re: Woke libraries
« Reply #166 on: August 25, 2022, 09:38:54 pm »
The people posting local library reasonable activities - my local libraries also have a bunch of reasonable activities.  Even the ones I'm pretty sure aren't reasonable have reasonable sounding names, or at least they did until the last few years, so the parents will send their kids.  Did you go and skim the books being pushed

You'll note I'm going rather more in depth than that. I don't think you need to worry about LGBT messaging in "reasonable sounding" activities. Drag Queen Story hour was advertised as "Drag Queen Story Hour". Library Systems/Communities engaging in that sort of thing are doing so because they feel it's inside the overton window for their community, and thus aren't trying to be particularly sneaky about it.

The LA and Chicago library book recommendations were also not particularly subtle.

Do you pay enough attention to what books have been removed from the shelves?

This is a good point, but unfortunately not one I am in a position to measure one way or the other.

I will be continuing my own not-quite-random walk around different sized and placed library systems shortly with Killeen, TX. I am pre-registering a prediction that it will maybe have something up for Pride Month on its calendar but not much more than that (i.e. consider this disproved if it actively recommends a selection of LGBT-themed books for young adults). I need a good 100K-400K, blue tribe-ish but not DEEP blue city after that. Boulder, CO seems too easy. Something in the NC Research Triangle maybe?

Ana

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Re: Woke libraries
« Reply #167 on: August 25, 2022, 09:51:28 pm »
I think a way to have non-woke libraries (that cannot be taken over) is to get rid of librarians.

Have books bought by popular vote (each library user gets to nominate or vote on, say, ten books a year, and veto 1; X vetos are enough to not purchase the book; the books are ordered by number of votes and bought until out of budget).

Have a burly security guard who'll make sure there are no undesirables there, and that the books don't get stolen.

Checkout is self-checkout.

Registering for a library card is online, the card is mailed to the address.

No librarian.

Returned books put back on shelves by users, on an honor system. If you feel that's not good enough, hire a temp a few hours a week to do that.

No librarians!

Activities are organised by volunteers, and library users get to veto events, too (event vetoes separate from book vetoes; also one a year).

Evan Þ

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Re: Woke libraries
« Reply #168 on: August 25, 2022, 09:59:54 pm »
I will be continuing my own not-quite-random walk around different sized and placed library systems shortly with Killeen, TX. I am pre-registering a prediction that it will maybe have something up for Pride Month on its calendar but not much more than that (i.e. consider this disproved if it actively recommends a selection of LGBT-themed books for young adults). I need a good 100K-400K, blue tribe-ish but not DEEP blue city after that. Boulder, CO seems too easy. Something in the NC Research Triangle maybe?

If you're going blue-ish in the Research Triangle where I grew up, you want Durham.  The town of Chapel Hill next door is much smaller and much deeper blue.  From my childhood memories, both their libraries were decent though the collection in Chapel Hill could've been larger.

Alternatively, maybe Richmond or somewhere in Texas?

Trofim_Lysenko

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Re: Woke libraries
« Reply #169 on: August 25, 2022, 10:10:42 pm »
Well, Killeen, TX's library page is SO spartan there's basically nothing to discuss. Not much more than a link to their web portal with catalog and ILL services, e-mails, addresses,  and phone numbers, and a couple PDFs: one for how to get a library card, one for an upcoming Game Day For Adults (note that the Libary cannot provide childcare services).

So, checking out Lubbock, TX...and theirs is only a little less so, but they are promoting more services. Several book clubs are the most prominent, with the current selections being:

-The Lincoln Lawyer (Supermarket Legal Thriller)

-Daisy & The Six (Historical Romance written as interviews charting the rise and fall of a fictitious 70s rock band.)

-Blindsided (Romance/Drama of the sort I tend to mentally label as "Relationship Porn", which probably says something not very complimentary about me. The sort of romance that follows married couples or long term relationships instead of fiery, passionate love-and-lust-at-first-sight relationships where the point is to ride the emotional roller coaster of the drama and the fights and the reconciliations)

-Diamond Doris: The True Story of the World’s Most Notorious Jewel Thief (True Crime Autobiography of Doris Payne)

EDIT: Maybe I'm out of line, but this gives me a REALLY strong impression that these book clubs are by, of, and for middle aged housewives. Call it the Lifetime Channel demographic.

There are videos of their "storytime" stories and crafts on their youtube channel and they're definitely idpol free.

I note that overdrive and libby are apparently pretty dominant services now, and I just want to note one little thing.

A brief aside.

Ready?

Ok.

Making people queue in a wait list before they can 'check out' one of an artificially finite copies of an E-Book or Audiobook is a stupid, STUPID fucking idea!

Thank you.
« Last Edit: August 26, 2022, 12:43:40 am by Trofim_Lysenko »

marshwiggle

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Re: Woke libraries
« Reply #170 on: August 25, 2022, 10:22:07 pm »
You are indeed going way more in depth on the activities, and I appreciate it.

My concern over activities with acceptable names but idpol/activisim hidden underneath stems from libraries around where I am, which is more blue/purple culturally - voted R until the last 10 years, but never culturally red, blue-purple at best, and tending blue now - but with librarians way way to the left of the population.

But I agree that your methods are sufficient.  I guess I'm asking for sufficient carefulness from people making claims stuff is ok in other places.

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Re: Woke libraries
« Reply #171 on: August 25, 2022, 10:22:41 pm »
Making people queue in a wait list before they can 'check out' one of an artificially finite copies of an E-Book or Audiobook is a stupid, STUPID fucking idea!

Thank you.

I agree it's a painful idea!  But how would you change it without cratering the market for selling e-books?  If I can get any ebook at my local library whenever I want without any waits, and read it on my own e-reader, then I'm never again going to buy any ebook that's in my library catalog.  And publishers know that.

Humphrey_Appleby

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Re: Woke libraries
« Reply #172 on: August 26, 2022, 12:23:10 am »
I looked in more detail through the book recommendations at my local library, and I see the same pattern that several people have brought up upthread. The recommendations for adults seem generally sensible, so do the ones for smaller kids, but the recommendations for teens are woke as fuck.

Is this coming from the librarians, or is it downstream of the ideological capture of young adult literature?


Needlessly Skeptical

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Re: Woke libraries
« Reply #173 on: August 26, 2022, 12:41:11 am »
Quote
Is this coming from the librarians, or is it downstream of the ideological capture of young adult literature?

The real joke would be if it’s just regurgitating best sellers for YA fiction

Humphrey_Appleby

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Re: Woke libraries
« Reply #174 on: August 26, 2022, 12:43:10 am »
Quote
Is this coming from the librarians, or is it downstream of the ideological capture of young adult literature?

The real joke would be if it’s just regurgitating best sellers for YA fiction

It might just be regurgitating best selling new YA fiction (which would be downstream of the ideological capture thereof). I presume the most read YA fiction is not new.

Needlessly Skeptical

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Re: Woke libraries
« Reply #175 on: August 26, 2022, 12:44:30 am »
Quote
It might just be regurgitating best selling new YA fiction (which would be downstream of the ideological capture thereof). I presume the most read YA fiction is not new.

That’s what you do, you highlight new products.  If true this would make the entire spectrum of analysis hilariously misguided

Humphrey_Appleby

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Re: Woke libraries
« Reply #176 on: August 26, 2022, 12:47:54 am »
Quote
It might just be regurgitating best selling new YA fiction (which would be downstream of the ideological capture thereof). I presume the most read YA fiction is not new.

That’s what you do, you highlight new products.  If true this would make the entire spectrum of analysis hilariously misguided

If that is what is going on and my local public library is representative of public libraries as a class. Note that I offered it upthread as an example of a public library that did not seem particularly woke.

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Re: Woke libraries
« Reply #177 on: August 26, 2022, 12:55:14 am »
The Turner Diaries is a not uninteresting read. Bought it about 20 years ago, passed it around among some of my leftist friends. Some found it intense if silly at times, one (a writer himself) said the story wasn't badly structured for its attempted grandiosity (or something like that).  Can report that none of us became right-wing terrorists.

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Re: Woke libraries
« Reply #178 on: August 26, 2022, 12:57:10 am »
Quote
Is this coming from the librarians, or is it downstream of the ideological capture of young adult literature?

The real joke would be if it’s just regurgitating best sellers for YA fiction

Browsing Amazon and comparing it to the CPL list this doesn't seem even close to true. Zero of their books are rated in the top 100. Its all romance novels (mostly F-M), often with some supernatural twist (#1 is vampire romance!) and then if you want to appeal to boys there appear to  be some mangas that are being read, particularly Chainsaw Man.

Needlessly Skeptical

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Re: Woke libraries
« Reply #179 on: August 26, 2022, 12:59:23 am »
Quote
Browsing Amazon and comparing it to the CPL list this doesn't seem even close to true. Zero of their books are rated in the top 100. Its all romance novels (mostly F-M), often with some supernatural twist (#1 is vampire romance!) and then if you want to appeal to boys there appear to  be some mangas that are being read, particularly Chainsaw Man.

If you time limited the search that would be pretty conclusive evidence to the contrary, I agree

DnDEmerald

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Re: Woke libraries
« Reply #180 on: August 26, 2022, 01:18:45 am »
Quote
It might just be regurgitating best selling new YA fiction (which would be downstream of the ideological capture thereof). I presume the most read YA fiction is not new.

That’s what you do, you highlight new products.  If true this would make the entire spectrum of analysis hilariously misguided

Librarians are not supposed to be businesswomen, dude. They should be pointing teens to the best fiction ever written if they're looking for fiction, now that their brain structure/reading comprehension has advanced to adult level.
"That’s a work only for Christian folk, and not for such a pack of trolls," -- East of the Sun and West of the Moon

Needlessly Skeptical

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Re: Woke libraries
« Reply #181 on: August 26, 2022, 01:43:58 am »
Quote
Librarians are not supposed to be businesswomen, dude. They should be pointing teens to the best fiction ever written if they're looking for fiction, now that their brain structure/reading comprehension has advanced to adult level.

I don’t expect librarians to be businessmen - I do expect them to highlight new products.  That’s how libraries stay relevant and in the public mindset.  If every time you refresh the page it’s Tolkien there’s no bonus to highlighting what the library is currently offering and the new additions. 

DnDEmerald

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Re: Woke libraries
« Reply #182 on: August 26, 2022, 01:46:58 am »
I don’t expect librarians to be businessmen - I do expect them to highlight new products.  That’s how libraries stay relevant and in the public mindset.  If every time you refresh the page it’s Tolkien there’s no bonus to highlighting what the library is currently offering and the new additions.

I don't see any difference between "highlighting new products" and "being corporate marketing department shills". New additions could be things like science books or up-to-date "how to job hunt", but otherwise any bonus or value is extremely questionable.
Plus if librarians are going to buy pap, it should be pap readers want rather than all these Woke equivalents of Der Giftpilz.
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Trofim_Lysenko

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Re: Woke libraries
« Reply #183 on: August 26, 2022, 02:00:48 am »
Quote
Is this coming from the librarians, or is it downstream of the ideological capture of young adult literature?

The real joke would be if it’s just regurgitating best sellers for YA fiction

This is something we can check. But library systems are a big purchaser, so this does not necessarily tell us as much as you might think. There are ~9,000 public library systems in the US, excluding educational institutions (K-12 and University systems). These average about 3 branches each. And each branch will generally buy multiple copies of a book, when new, both to keep up with demand and because books actually wear out pretty quickly when not cared for (as library books tend not to be) and when in heavy use (as library books are), and 10+ copies of a popular book would not be that unusual (50-100+ in a big library system).

Note that this purchasing is heavily front loaded because demand is front loaded. A large initial purchase, then you just don't replace the books that wear out as demand drops off, or offload the unneeded copies on the secondary market. This is called weeding, and is actually a pretty important part of the curation process (Yes, it sucks that there's only one public library copy of that ethnographic study of pre-Communist Vietnamese hill tribes in the whole state and you have to wait a month to get it via ILL when there's an entire shelf of Taylor Swift's new Diet/Dancercise book Shake It Off displayed in the lobby, but space is limited....).

This is before we get into how heavily gamed bestsellers lists are (look up William Blatty's failed attempt to sue the New York Times for not listing The Exorcist after it sold 10 Million Copies. He lost because the NYT successfully argued in court that the NYT Bestseller list is an "editorial product"). To use another example, USA Today will curate its bestseller list from books that "sold" at least 6,000 copies in a week in the US at some point, as long as 500+ of those sales were not to/from Amazon. What do I mean to/from? Well, they explicitly count book retailer purchases. That is, if the publisher's marketing department got a deal signed to move 5,500 copies to Amazon and 500 copies to Barnes and Noble in the same week, congratulations, you've met the sales criteria for USA Today Bestseller even if your book never sells one copy to an actual customer.

That said, I don't think we even have to go that far. Squad, the Lesbian Werewolf story's biggest claim is that it was #11 on IndieBound's Bestselling YA fiction list for 1 week in November of 2021. IndieBound is based of self-reporting from "hundreds" of "independent and local" bookstores. No actual numbers are reported.

Heartstoppers, Vol. 4? USA Today Bestselling series (see above for what that actually means)!

Fresh? Nada.

Love In English? Nada, but the Author's debut YA novel won a "National Indie Excellence" award. AFAICT this is a contest that anyone can enter their book in for a fee as long as it has an ISBN. It started in 2005, but very, very selective, I mean this year there were only...um....128 winners and....er....437 finalists!

A-Okay? Hey, the first one to show up on Amazon! It made it to #280 in US Children's Biographies!

The Chandler Chronicles? 2 For 2, #126 in Teen & Young Adult Fiction (Books) on Bullying and  #254 in Teen & Young Adult LGBTQ+ Fiction (Books).

You get the idea. I don't think "they're just picking whatever's best-selling" is an adequate explanation here, though I DO think that these books are probably being promoted on curated lists of "Good books with good messages for YA audiences" in places like School Library Journal.

To give people reading this a sense of scale for those Amazon numbers, I tried to do some digging and see what was comparable. The Martian is #20 in Humorous Science Fiction (Books). Good Omens is #51 in Humorous Fantasy (Books).

Conrad

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Re: Woke libraries
« Reply #184 on: August 26, 2022, 02:06:38 am »
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Librarians are not supposed to be businesswomen, dude. They should be pointing teens to the best fiction ever written if they're looking for fiction, now that their brain structure/reading comprehension has advanced to adult level.

I don’t expect librarians to be businessmen - I do expect them to highlight new products.  That’s how libraries stay relevant and in the public mindset.  If every time you refresh the page it’s Tolkien there’s no bonus to highlighting what the library is currently offering and the new additions.

Eh, yeah, I liked the fact the staff picks at my library were just about all books written in the last year or so. I don't need somebody to recommend me all the shit I've already read. It actually made me want to start reading again.
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Re: Woke libraries
« Reply #185 on: August 26, 2022, 02:21:54 am »
Quote
Librarians are not supposed to be businesswomen, dude. They should be pointing teens to the best fiction ever written if they're looking for fiction, now that their brain structure/reading comprehension has advanced to adult level.

I don’t expect librarians to be businessmen - I do expect them to highlight new products.  That’s how libraries stay relevant and in the public mindset.  If every time you refresh the page it’s Tolkien there’s no bonus to highlighting what the library is currently offering and the new additions.

Eh, yeah, I liked the fact the staff picks at my library were just about all books written in the last year or so. I don't need somebody to recommend me all the shit I've already read. It actually made me want to start reading again.

And if every YA book is about gays we have an incredibly weird upstream problem.  The vast majority of YA are heterosexual, obviously.  There is, frankly, a market for lesbian and gay media for straight young men and straight young women respectively - but I doubt that’s the explanatory variable

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Re: Woke libraries
« Reply #186 on: August 26, 2022, 02:27:45 am »
And if every YA book is about gays we have an incredibly weird upstream problem.  The vast majority of YA are heterosexual, obviously.  There is, frankly, a market for lesbian and gay media for straight young men and straight young women respectively - but I doubt that’s the explanatory variable

It was rather odd that they recommended Thrawn to adults, but 60% of the recommendations for teens were gay romance.
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Re: Woke libraries
« Reply #187 on: August 26, 2022, 02:33:57 am »
Quote
Browsing Amazon and comparing it to the CPL list this doesn't seem even close to true. Zero of their books are rated in the top 100. Its all romance novels (mostly F-M), often with some supernatural twist (#1 is vampire romance!) and then if you want to appeal to boys there appear to  be some mangas that are being read, particularly Chainsaw Man.

If you time limited the search that would be pretty conclusive evidence to the contrary, I agree

I don't really know how to do that with Amazon. They claim to "update hourly" on the site. And the list seems plausible. Its a mix of old classics like the Harry Potters, some newer romance novels, ACT test prep (lol), and some comics.

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Re: Woke libraries
« Reply #188 on: August 26, 2022, 02:48:22 am »
old classics

 Harry Potters

Damn, I'm old.

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Re: Woke libraries
« Reply #189 on: August 26, 2022, 02:58:30 am »
Durham, NC Public Library, Part 1

At suggestion, the next library system is Durham, North Carolina. So far we have 2-3 major metro areas (lots of LGBTQ+ stuff aimed at teens), 1 small midwestern town (nothing woke unless you count a single Pride month blog post), and 2 small cities in Texas (nothing Woke at all), This is aiming for a small city in a more blue-ish area for comparison.

Like another of the libraries so far, Durham's system has its own YouTube channel with videos of their story time and activities for kids. Quite a few classics on here (Little Red Hen, Ants and the Grasshopper, The Giving Tree) as well as ones new to me (The Mouse Who Wanted To Marry), but skimming videos and googling titles of stories isn't turning up anything remotely controversial here. So far, my prior that stuff like "Drag Queen Story Hour" are still fairly isolated incidents is feeling pretty confirmed.

Their "For Kids And Family" page also has a "Battle Of The Books":

-Story of John Smith's fictional page at Jamestown. Definite "'Johnny Tremain' but with more sympathetic portrayals of Powhatan and Pocahantas" vibes.

-Stella By Starlight: "When a burning cross set by the Klan causes panic and fear in 1932 Bumblebee, North Carolina, fifth-grader Stella must face prejudice and find the strength to demand change in her segregated town."

-Ban This Book: Story of a 4th Grader standing up and facing down censorious parents getting a book pulled from a library.

-Found: YA SF about two teenagers discovering that they were actually from the distant past, and that futuristic time travelers kidnapped them and dumped them in the 20th century to change history.

-The Old Willis Place: Family Friendly Haunted House story.

-The Fourteenth Goldfish: Mad Scientist Grandpa makes himself a kid, actual kids ponder how life must be lived out normally and not meddled with (Me Am Play God!).

-The Lambert Inheritance: Kid has a summer adventure making a friend after a letter and item inherited from a dead ancestor puts them on a trail of a mystery that lets them undo old racist injustices against a black family in South Carolina.

-A Snicker of Magic: "The Pickles are new to Midnight Gulch, Tennessee, a town which legend says was once magic--but Felicity is convinced the magic is still there, and with the help of her new friend Jonah the Beedle she hopes to bring the magic back."

-From The Desk Of Zoe Washington: Pre-Teen girl's dad is in prison, and she strikes up a pen pal relationship with him and learns important lessons about how racist the justice system is. No, I am not being snarky, the actual portion from the back cover blurb is: "When Marcus tells Zoe he is innocent, and her grandmother agrees, Zoe begins to learn about inequality in the criminal justice system, and she and Trevor set out to find the alibi witness who can prove his innocence. Debut author Marks seamlessly weaves timely discussions about institutionalized racism into this uplifting and engaging story that packs an emotional punch. Ages 8-12"

-Rain Reign: "Struggling with Asperger's, Rose shares a bond with her beloved dog, but when the dog goes missing during a storm, Rose is forced to confront the limits of her comfort levels, even if it means leaving her routines in order to search for her pet."

-Jack And The Geniuses: At The Bottom Of The World: YA Adventure series focused on science by Bill Nye. Basically Hardy Boys/Encyclopedia Brown + Science Educator stuff.

-Save Me A Seat: Indian Kid and kid with a learning disability team up and become friends to stand up to bullies.

So, definite ideological/cultural messaging going on there, but I would argue that from a blue tribe perspective this is basic "good parenting" "Good citizen" "prosocial" stuff. I don't think anything here can be described as "grooming".

Moving on to the Teens section...and they lead with a picture of the "LGBTQ+ Books For Teens" pamphlet holder at one of their branches. It looks like the teen librarians run an Instagram account (smart, honestly) promoting stuff like:

-A Class on making your own Juneteenth Windsock
-A session where teens work on building their public speaking and creative improv skills by an area Poetry Slam founder.
-A D&D game
-A Mario Kart tournament
-A Smash tournament
-"Who Wrote It: Tupac Or Shakespeare?" (Hello, Fellow Kids!)
-Community Cooking: an Abolitionist Class For Teens ("This cooking class is inspired by abolition, which imagines a world without prisons and policing. What are the practices that allow you to feel cared for and safe? As we cook together, we’ll share our stories and visions for what creating community safety looks like.")

There is a Middle School and a High School "Battle Of The Books" listed out separately and there are a shit-ton of titles, so since this one is already super long I am going to stop here and pick up tomorrow. Is anyone actually finding these helpful/illuminating?

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Re: Woke libraries
« Reply #190 on: August 26, 2022, 03:10:42 am »
There is a Middle School and a High School "Battle Of The Books" listed out separately and there are a shit-ton of titles, so since this one is already super long I am going to stop here and pick up tomorrow. Is anyone actually finding these helpful/illuminating?
I've found them interesting. I think most of the value has probably been mined out of this exercise (I'm starting to skim them more now), but I do appreciate that you made the effort to do real legwork on this topic.

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Re: Woke libraries
« Reply #191 on: August 26, 2022, 03:23:38 am »
Someone I'm close to was a middle school librarian who told me that YA fiction goes through fads where it's often hard to get books promoted that aren't part of that fad.  There was a magic phase crowned by Harry Potter, and a vampire/supernatural period defined by Twilight, then dystopian lit had a run exemplared by Hunger Games.  I recall this person complaining that the current fad was queer lit - this was at least 8 years ago.  I don't know how long these usually last because it seems like we've been stuck in the LGBT fad for a long time, though maybe moving between the different letters counts as different fads.
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Re: Woke libraries
« Reply #192 on: August 26, 2022, 03:38:58 am »
And if every YA book is about gays we have an incredibly weird upstream problem.  The vast majority of YA are heterosexual, obviously.  There is, frankly, a market for lesbian and gay media for straight young men and straight young women respectively - but I doubt that’s the explanatory variable

Let's see what Amazon's top-selling Teen and YA books are.

Prominent places go to...

...a very clear attempt to court the Twilight Crowd in both plot and cover design. Multiple book series.

...The "A Good Girl's Guide To Murder" series. Not a LGBT/Queer-centric story at all, AFAICT.

...To All The Boys, a romance series that was adapted for films and a Netflix series.

...Harry Potter, still, no surprise.

Scrubbing back and forth through new releases as well, while I DO think that YA Fiction publishing in particular is pretty ideologically captured (especially YA genre fiction, this is something that has caused some very nasty purity spiral/circular firing squad dramas including at least one very promising author basically immolating their second book and walking away from writing), I don't think it can fully explain the effect that is being observed here.

EDIT: Note that I was typing this and looking at other stuff and didn't see @Eilesberu's post, but what I'm seeing matches their comments. Harry Potter, Supernatural romance...the YA Dystopian SF stuff seems to have had no legs (Maze Runner, Divergent, Hunger Games, etc), though Cinder (YA Dystopian Fairy Tale SF) is on one of the Durham Library's teen book lists.

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Re: Woke libraries
« Reply #193 on: August 26, 2022, 03:53:06 am »
I'm finding it useful.  Plus, I think that introducing data to a discussion like this is a healthy thing.

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Re: Woke libraries
« Reply #194 on: August 26, 2022, 03:53:17 am »
Isn't it likely that the ALA (American Library Association) or equivalent puts together reading lists?
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Re: Woke libraries
« Reply #195 on: August 26, 2022, 06:22:12 am »
There is a Middle School and a High School "Battle Of The Books" listed out separately and there are a shit-ton of titles, so since this one is already super long I am going to stop here and pick up tomorrow. Is anyone actually finding these helpful/illuminating?
I am, for both evidence and context. And I've already had to re-adjust my priors. I appreciate it, this type of work must take time and effort.
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Re: Woke libraries
« Reply #196 on: August 26, 2022, 08:50:46 am »
I looked in more detail through the book recommendations at my local library, and I see the same pattern that several people have brought up upthread. The recommendations for adults seem generally sensible, so do the ones for smaller kids, but the recommendations for teens are woke as fuck.

Is this coming from the librarians, or is it downstream of the ideological capture of young adult literature?

Woke politics drives genuine engagement with some groups. One of those groups is the young upper middle to upper class women who make up a disproportionate number of media consumers and readers. Working class conservative white Christian young men don't read very much.

As for my library: The library has several teen book lists. It has one explicitly billed as woke adjacent. The books are: Maus (about the Holocaust), The Fire Keeper's Daughter (about race and living near a reservation), Youth (a queer coming of age story), A History of Florida Through Black Eyes, This Story Is A Lie (coming of age story about autism), Halal If You Hear Me (modern Muslim poetry), The Henna Artist (I believe something to do with India, not exactly sure), All About Love (a feminist work), and Octavia's Brood (feminist sci-fi).

The main book list is: 10 Truths and a Dare (high school romance/drama), Ace of Spades (murder mystery), All Of Us Villains (about villains forcing their children to fight in a tournament), All These Bodies (drama about a serial killer), Any Sign of Life (post-apocalyptic), Aristotle and Dante Dive into the Waters of the World (gay romance drama), Concrete Rose (gangland drama), Counting Down With You (school drama and romance), Dark Rise (fantasy), and The Fire Keeper's Daughter (drama). All of them have some degree of queer/minority representation. But some are notably going for woke style politics (Ace of Spades and The Fire Keeper's Daughter in particular have significant political and racial themes). Others less so.

Apparently the main teen reading list is made by the librarians taking the top 100 or so books that are checked out by teens and then having them vote on which ones are best. So it's not a top down selection. I find it notable how frankly ordinary the selection is. Lots of romance/drama, some crime and murder mystery, a bit of sci-fi/fantasy (weighted towards fantasy). Though what really surprises me is that most of these books are at most a few years old. They are not striking off older books (the voting options include things like Harry Potter). So I guess a lot of people read the new releases these days.

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Re: Woke libraries
« Reply #197 on: August 27, 2022, 06:50:55 pm »
I just got back from my city library, and out of curiosity, I checked out the dust-jacket summaries for the 18 books displayed on top of a shelf at the front of the teen section with a "staff picks" sign. Depending on how generously or restrictively you count, 2-7 of them seemed "woke".

The two explicitly woke books were Hell Followed With Us (the summary reads like a bingo card) and All American Boys (the plot revolves around racism and police brutality).

The next tier down are Tales of the Blackfoot Nation and Akata Woman. The later sounds like a generic YA fantasy story except it is based on Nigerian mythology. These stories don't sound woke per se, but were probably elevated in selection due to woke sensibilities.

The last three are more tenuous. Two of the story summaries mentioned same-sex romance, but in an offhand way where you could just change a couple words and it would sound like every YA story of the past. The last was a story about a girl dealing with disability and the social stress that results at school. Personally, I don't think these should count as "woke", but I assume that a conservative with an axe to grind would count these to run up the numbers.

But even under the most expansive definition, that's 11 out 18 whose summaries don't suggest anything woke at all. I was actually surprised by this, as I live in a solid blue area.



So, definite ideological/cultural messaging going on there, but I would argue that from a blue tribe perspective this is basic "good parenting" "Good citizen" "prosocial" stuff. I don't think anything here can be described as "grooming".

As far as I can tell, in actual usage, "grooming" is just a right-wing attack word for things they don't like. I'm not sure where you would even find actual "grooming", except maybe a sex-ed textbook, and those don't get displayed on library shelves.

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Re: Woke libraries
« Reply #198 on: August 27, 2022, 07:13:39 pm »
As far as I can tell, in actual usage, "grooming" is just a right-wing attack word for things they don't like. I'm not sure where you would even find actual "grooming", except maybe a sex-ed textbook, and those don't get displayed on library shelves.

On the DSL library thread @Rebecca Friedman included both The Moon is a Harsh Mistress and The Door into Summer in her library, and even put the former in the teen section.  Both probably count as grooming as they normalize sexual relations that many in the US would find problematic.  (Needless to say I read both of these as a teen, or possibly before that.  Maybe that explains too much.  ...and later Heinlein gets worse.)  Heinlein isn't alone in this either.  I'm pretty sure I remember similar problematic material by John Varley, Iain M. Banks, Gene Wolfe, etc.  So you'd better include some major branches of SF in your "grooming" section.

(I was about to limit this to SF written by men, but then I remembered Ursula LeGuin.  But LeGuin's outside-the-Overton-window sexuality had a different feel to it than the examples written by men.  Controversial, but in a different way.  More likely to be attacked from the Right than from the Left.)
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Re: Woke libraries
« Reply #199 on: August 27, 2022, 07:53:34 pm »
On the DSL library thread @Rebecca Friedman included both The Moon is a Harsh Mistress and The Door into Summer in her library, and even put the former in the teen section.  Both probably count as grooming as they normalize sexual relations that many in the US would find problematic.

Many is a weasel word - for just about every position there are probably "many" Americans who support it, from strict gun control to a legal upper bound on wages to anarchist capitalism. And Heinlein took great care in "Mistress" to point out that it's strictly the woman who decides about initiating sexual relations, and any guy who breaks this rule is in danger of being thrown out an airlock. Calling this "grooming" without giving the context of Heinleins actual writing is about as deceitful as calling "Starship Troopers" fascist just because the society he envisions is militaristic and legalizes corporal punishment - the argument can be made, of course, but it needs much more than a throwaway one-liner. You could just as easily call Luna a feminist dream society, for a certain kind of feminist.
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Re: Woke libraries
« Reply #200 on: August 27, 2022, 10:23:40 pm »
If teachers "get off" on teaching kids to shoot, should we ban all mentions or depictions of guns as "grooming" as well?

The whole concept of grooming is about breaking down sexual barriers between adults and minors.

In the opposite, the whole concept of responsible gun use is experienced people educating and teaching them how to use them effectively.

If sex were like guns sex ed would the teachers porking the kids.

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Re: Woke libraries
« Reply #201 on: August 28, 2022, 12:44:34 am »
Quote
Librarians are not supposed to be businesswomen, dude. They should be pointing teens to the best fiction ever written if they're looking for fiction, now that their brain structure/reading comprehension has advanced to adult level.

I don’t expect librarians to be businessmen - I do expect them to highlight new products.  That’s how libraries stay relevant and in the public mindset.  If every time you refresh the page it’s Tolkien there’s no bonus to highlighting what the library is currently offering and the new additions.

Eh, yeah, I liked the fact the staff picks at my library were just about all books written in the last year or so. I don't need somebody to recommend me all the shit I've already read. It actually made me want to start reading again.

And if every YA book is about gays we have an incredibly weird upstream problem.  The vast majority of YA are heterosexual, obviously.  There is, frankly, a market for lesbian and gay media for straight young men and straight young women respectively - but I doubt that’s the explanatory variable

My impression is that the YA writing and publishing community has done this weird ideological purity spiral thing over the last few years, leading to various purges, denunciations, unpersonings, cancellations of books, etc that occasionally become big enough to get some media coverage.  In this environment, it seems entirely plausible that nobody wants to stop clapping first even if that means not selling as many books as you might otherwise hope to sell.  Hopefully some less wrapped-around-the-axle people will enter the field and eat the lunch of the ideologically blinded folks a la Substack.
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Re: Woke libraries
« Reply #202 on: August 28, 2022, 12:49:12 am »
Is Substack eating anyone’s lunch? Whose?

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Re: Woke libraries
« Reply #203 on: August 28, 2022, 01:11:54 am »
Back to looking at the actual contents of actual libraries. As a reminder, this is Part Two of looking at Durham, NC's library system, an attempt to look at a blue tribe-ish small city (100-300K pop) after doing the same for two red tribe-ish small cities in Texas.

If you're wondering about my synopses, I am looking at Amazon, Goodreads, Publisher pages, and so on as well as the back cover blurbs. I will only do the Middle sChool list this time, and will do the Teen list tomorrow because it was LONG.

Middle School Reading List:

The Crossover: "Fourteen-year-old twin basketball stars Josh and Jordan wrestle with highs and lows on and off the court as their father ignores his declining health.". Written in poetic style rather than prose.

I Will Always Write Back: True story/Memoi about an american girl and a zimbabwean boy who became close friends after meeting via a school pen pal assignment. Co-written between them and the journalist who popularized their human interest story.

Etiquette & Espionage: Supernatural Steampunk by Gail Carriger about a girl at a boarding school that turns out to teach magic and spy tradecraft as well as etiquette and the three Rs. Set in the same setting as Carriger's other books which I have actually read. Her other series has some romance, but no indications of that here.

Maybe He Just Likes You: "When boys in her class start touching seventh-grader Mila and making her feel uncomfortable, she does not want to tell her friends or mother until she reaches her breaking point. Barbara Dee explores the subject of #MeToo for the middle grade audience in this heart-wrenching—and ultimately uplifting—novel about experiencing harassment and unwanted attention from classmates."

Ashes to Ashville: "Gr 5-8-Following the death of one of her mothers, Mama Lacy, 12-year-old Fella is ripped from the only other parent she has ever known, Mama Shannon, and her 16-year-old sister, Zoey Grace, aka Zany. Fella is forced to move in with her grandmother Mrs. Madison, who has never approved of the relationship between her daughter, the more serious Mama Lacy, and the free-spirited Mama Shannon. When Zany shows up in the middle of the night, whisking away Fella and Mrs. Madison's stowaway poodle, Haberdashery, they set off on a misadventure of epic proportions. Zany is steadfastly determined that she and Fella return to Asheville, NC, to honor Mama Lacy's dying wish that her ashes be scattered there. In the span of a night, what can go wrong does-the girls lose (and find) the ash-filled urn and accept a ride with a would-be thief, and the dog is hit by a car-but nothing will stop them in their pursuit to tie together the last shreds of their torn-apart family. Many poor decisions are made during the journey, such as taking a ride with a stranger. While searching for the girls, Mama Shannon and Mrs. Madison come to realize they have more in common than they think, and they begin to understand the importance of putting aside their own grief when making family decisions. Dooley makes readers stop and think about what really constitutes a family and whether laws should ultimately define those parameters."

Paper Things: "Ari and her older brother, Gage, have lived with a strict guardian since their mother died four years ago, but now Gage, 19, wants to leave-and take 11-year-old Ari with him. The siblings' mother implored them to "Stay together always," but without an apartment or a job for Gage, they bounce around among friends' places and a homeless shelter, even spending a night in Gage's girlfriend's car. As Ari falls behind at school, she wonders if she can still fulfill her mother's wish for her to attend a middle-school for gifted kids. Despite an overly neat conclusion, Jacobson (Small as an Elephant) elevates her book beyond "problem novel" territory with an engaging narrator who works hard to be loyal to her brother-and to her mother's memory. Small moments pack big emotional wallops, as when a teacher gives Ari "brand-new, trés cool shoes" to replace her "ratty" ones, or when Ari pretends that the people she cuts from magazine are a family, because, "With a big family you're likely to have someone watching out for you always." A tender exploration of homelessness. Ages 10-up."

Roller Girl: Bildungsroman graphic novel about a pre-teen girl who discovers roller derby and loves it, but has to deal with growing apart from her previous BFF whose interests diverge.

The Boy Who Harnessed The Wind: Autobiography of a Malawian boy who helps his village survive after a drought by figuring out how to power the local generator using a windmill.

The Makings Of America: Alexander Hamilton: "The America that Alexander Hamilton knew was largely agricultural and built on slave labor. He envisioned something else: a multi-racial, urbanized, capitalistic America with a strong central government. He believed that such an America would be a land of opportunity for the poor and the newcomers. But Hamilton's vision put him at odds with his archrivals who envisioned a pastoral America of small towns, where governments were local, states would control their own destiny, and the federal government would remain small and weak. The disputes that arose during America's first decades continued through American history to our present day. Over time, because of the systems Hamilton set up and the ideas he left, his vision won out. Here is the story that epitomizes the American dream--a poor immigrant who made good in America. In the end, Hamilton rose from poverty through his intelligence and ability, and did more to shape our country than any of his contemporaries."

Song for a Whale: A deaf-from-birth girl goes on a road trip when she learns about a whale that can't communicate with other whales and is inspired to help them.

Under The Mesquite: A Mexican-American English Professor's free-verse autobiography focusing on her teen years and "Aztec heritage".

Cinder: This was on another list earlier. It's a YA Dystopian Sci-Fi romance, part of a series bringing together Dystopian Sci-Fi versions of female fairy tale heroines.

Bloom: Science Fiction Thriller about 3 pre-teen friends whose allergies make them resistant to the alien plants whose seeds rained from space and are now getting ready to take over the world. Looks like the later books move to full on YA Dystopian Sci-Fi as the aliens themselves show up.

All Of The Above: "Five urban middle school students, their teacher, and other community members relate how a school project to build the world's largest tetrahedron affects the lives of everyone involved."

A Good Kind Of Trouble: "After attending a powerful protest, Shayla starts wearing an armband to school to support the Black Lives Matter movement, but when the school gives her an ultimatum, she is forced to choose between her education and her identity."

Ghost: "Reynolds (As Brave As You) uses a light hand to delve into topics that include gun violence, class disparity, and bullying in this compelling series opener. Seventh-grader Castle Cranshaw, nicknamed Ghost, knows nothing about track when a former Olympian recruits him as a sprinter for one of the city's youth teams. As far as Ghost is concerned, "whoever invented track got the whole gun means go thing right," something he learned firsthand when his father tried to shoot Ghost and his mother in their apartment three years prior. The trauma has had ripple effects on Ghost, including angry outbursts ("I was the boy.... with all the scream inside"), altercations at school, stealing, and lying. Joining the track team provides new friends, goals, and an opportunity for Ghost to move beyond his past. Ghost is a well-meaning, personable narrator whose intense struggles are balanced by a love of world records, sunflower seeds, and his mother. Coach's relationship with Ghost develops into a surrogate father-son scenario, adding substantial emotional resonance and humor to the mix. "

Between Shades Of Gray: "Fifteen-year-old Lina is a Lithuanian girl living an ordinary life -- until Soviet officers invade her home and tear her family apart. Separated from her father and forced onto a crowded train, Lina, her mother, and her young brother make their way to a Siberian work camp, where they are forced to fight for their lives. Lina finds solace in her art, documenting these events by drawing. Risking everything, she imbeds clues in her drawings of their location and secretly passes them along, hoping her drawings will make their way to her father's prison camp. But will strength, love, and hope be enough for Lina and her family to survive?"

Undefeated: Jim Thorpe and the Carlisle Indian School Team: A" great American sport and Native American history come together in this true story of how Jim Thorpe and Pop Warner created the legendary Carlisle Indians football team. Part of a history series that also includes a YA history of The Pentagon Papers and The Port Chicago 50.

"Sheinkin calls out the ignominious history of Indian schools nationwide, pointing to the parts they played in stripping Native children of their languages, cultures, and connections with their families and communities throughout the US. He also factually lays out the school's founder's bigotry and clearly odious "mission" of the school."

Counting By 7s: Brilliant but socially awkward kid learns to deal with grief when they are orphaned and are taken in by an impovrished vietnamese family.

Lockwood & Co.: The Screaming Staircase: 3 teenaged psychic detectives team up to fight ghosts in alternate history London.

The Bridge Home: Two siblings in India run away from their abusive father and set up housekeeping with two other children in a hovel outside Chennai, finding a new family.

Deathwatch: "Needing money for school, Ben accepts a job as guide on a desert hunting trip and nearly loses his life when a cutthroat Los Angeles corporation executive hunting bighorn sheep turns him out in the California desert some 45 miles from the nearest town without water, food, weapons, or clothes."

Beyond The Bright Sea: "Several central characters populate Wolk's New England coming-of-age novel. The protagonist, Crow, at 12, has begun asking questions about her past as an abandoned baby-questions that neither her taciturn foster father, Osh, nor their matter-of-fact neighbor Miss Maggie are equipped to answer. As the story unfolds, the three characters venture forth from their tiny island off Cape Cod to discover the truth about Crow's lost family, encountering unexpected dangers along the way"

Again, nothing with LGBTQ messaging here, though there is a recurring theme both in this collection and several others of "Found Family". And again, a lot of definite political and social commentary, but it's pretty expected for children's books to try and inculcate pro-social values, so I would expect a book list in a "Blue Tribe" area to inculcate valuies and teach history from that sort of perspective, just as I would expect "Red Tribe" type lists to do the same. If you were a conservative parent you would probably want to be aware of some of this and be prepared to have discussions about the material, though. The most surprising thing here to me is that the story about Lithuanians in Stalinist Russia made it on the list at all.

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Re: Woke libraries
« Reply #204 on: August 28, 2022, 01:25:54 am »
Oh, that reminds me. The last Twlight book features a major character having a Supernatural True Love Bond with an infant. Now there's your grooming!

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Re: Woke libraries
« Reply #205 on: August 30, 2022, 03:26:30 pm »

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Re: Woke libraries
« Reply #206 on: September 03, 2022, 09:25:29 pm »
The latest Federalist has an article about the coordinated proliferation of "Drag Queen Story Hour". What's most interesting to me about this is just how much it drives home an apparent essential difference between progressives and conservatives (in the U.S., at least) -- conservatives seem to mostly want to be left alone with their stuff, while progressives organize, organize, organize, organize. Me, I mostly just want to grill and read on the weekends, but progs seem to mobilize politically as easily as they breathe.
And where the hell was Biggles, anyway?

Mr. Meeseeks

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Re: Woke libraries
« Reply #207 on: September 05, 2022, 11:28:30 pm »
Someone gets to decide which books are stocked and which books are promoted by the library.  In the case of a library funded by taxpayers, I don't see why this decision should be made entirely according to the political and personal beliefs of the librarian (who will invariably be a leftist).  Boot out the book-shitters and masturbators, hire a librarian (though likely not a properly credentialed one!) who will buy books with the tastes of the bulk of the patrons in mind, and avoid promoting the ones they'll really hate to their kids, and maybe there's a purpose for a community library.  Convert it into an institution to promote wokism and use residual respect for "libraries" to protect it from attack.... well, sooner or later even conservatives realize that if they've been booted from an institution, they have no reason not to shell it from the outside.

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Re: Woke libraries
« Reply #208 on: September 07, 2022, 05:25:09 am »
the general course of people to hew towards that which is right and just.

The last at least is manifestly incorrect -- one doesn't even need to bring Nazis into it. Did the Stalinists, Maoists, and/or Aztec theocrats hew towards that which is right and/or just?

General course in no way connotes every choice and action is more right and just.

How are we to tell the difference between the general course of history and some small eddy which will merely plunge our country into a few generations of death and despair?

Most generally look for the things either A)outside human control and/or prediction or B) efforts coinciding with or pushing for decreased democratic control of power.  Granted, in theory decreasedly democratic states are equally capable of sudden lurches towards extreme good as they are extreme evil, but in practice this appears to be markedly set in one direction.

This thread is about librarians pushing materials which glorify LGBTQ/wokism, against the wishes of the constituencies that they serve.

That seems well within human control (as are most CW things), which I'm not sure the relevance of -- but also clearly "pushing for decreased democratic control of power".

What do?

albatross11

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Re: Woke libraries
« Reply #209 on: September 09, 2022, 12:28:38 am »
ISTM that the interesting problem here has to do with the agency problem as it applies to electorates/communities with different values and cultures than the people they're hiring. 

My community wants to hire a librarian to organize and manage a local public library.  The pool of librarians is on average quite different in terms of values and ideology relative to the community.  The question is how we hire and manage the librarian to ensure that she runs the library in a way broadly consistent with our values, rather than her own.  This seems like an entirely doable thing to me, if we can manage to have enough coherence as a community to (say) have a board of volunteers from the community who oversee the library and will object or even fire the librarian if she goes outside what they consider appropriate. 
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Re: Woke libraries
« Reply #210 on: September 09, 2022, 03:51:50 pm »
Also, to shift back to the topic, I think libraries are too woke to the extent that they hire folks from outside of the community they serve due to a glut of passionate folks who got credentials (library degrees) and will work anywhere they can get a job in a library. 

I don't know how to fix the problem, but focusing on extreme examples (aka, something some library somewhere far away that would be extremely unpopular somewhere else, especially if you were led to believe it was most of what they were doing) is counterproductive (though engaging for folks who like to argue online).

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Re: Woke libraries
« Reply #211 on: September 09, 2022, 07:31:29 pm »
The Virginia policies evolved:

---First, Statewide mask mandates in schools, lifted July 25, 2021.

--Second, with the mandate lifted, the decision on mask requirements will be made on the local level at each of the state’s 132 school divisions. Recommendations to mask everyone in sight, which were followed virtually everywhere.

--Third, lawsuits claiming Va government has nor right to lift local mask mandates.

--Fourth, Va legislature gives Governor said authority.

--Fifth, new governor devolves the masking decision to parents.

Thus, all this after lots of elections, not just for governor.

There is some science involved of course, but also interests. First, kids don't get sick, though adults do. Second, teachers are more risk adverse than an insurance salesman, and the buggers won't work. Hence the popularity of mask mandates, though no one is prevented from wearing a mask.

Masking decisions made at lowest possible level is efficient and this time the democratic process got validated.

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Re: Woke libraries
« Reply #212 on: September 09, 2022, 08:58:07 pm »
Also, to shift back to the topic, I think libraries are too woke to the extent that they hire folks from outside of the community they serve due to a glut of passionate folks who got credentials (library degrees) and will work anywhere they can get a job in a library. 

I don't know how to fix the problem, but focusing on extreme examples (aka, something some library somewhere far away that would be extremely unpopular somewhere else, especially if you were led to believe it was most of what they were doing) is counterproductive (though engaging for folks who like to argue online).

The way to fix the problem in most municipalities is to make the librarians retired people who like books. The NYPL needs credentialed librarians to help people do research. A town of 80k needs some nice volunteers to open the doors and reshelve the books/dvds.

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Re: Woke libraries
« Reply #213 on: September 10, 2022, 04:00:22 am »
(Silencing offensive and harmful opinions was a big cause of the right when I was younger, for example.  Similarly, race and gender as a basic and fundamental part how you define a person, with both having deep moral importance, was not something I grew up hearing from the left.)

It's still a cause today, it's just that they use more hard power than soft power. Like passing laws to financially punish companies for criticizing you. Or the recent ESG boycott stuff.

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Re: Woke libraries
« Reply #214 on: September 10, 2022, 04:05:38 am »
\
It's still a cause today, it's just that they use more hard power than soft power. Like passing laws to financially punish companies for criticizing you.

Wait, which way did the Citizen's United decision go?

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Re: Woke libraries
« Reply #215 on: September 10, 2022, 04:12:51 am »
It sure is funny sometimes to think back on the ancient times when business was rightwing and it was the left who complained about evil corporations and was mad about Citizens United and so on.

clutzy

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Re: Woke libraries
« Reply #216 on: September 10, 2022, 05:26:54 am »
It sure is funny sometimes to think back on the ancient times when business was rightwing and it was the left who complained about evil corporations and was mad about Citizens United and so on.

The kind of media at question in Citizen's United is still rightish wing. It was about small, independent, media. Basically the proto-Daily Wire publishing a documentary.

I never got the sense that anyone in 2010 really feared Wal Mart was going to start buying up massive amounts of ads in favor of Mitt Romney. Instead, it was WaPo, NYT, CNN, etc agitating over losing their pseudo-monopoly.

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Re: Woke libraries
« Reply #217 on: September 10, 2022, 07:23:47 pm »
...
(Silencing offensive and harmful opinions was a big cause of the right when I was younger, for example.  ...)

Parents' Music Resource Council (PMRC), probably the most successful such push, was headed by Tipper Gore, wife of Democratic Senator Al Gore.

"Shut up" has never been a reliably partisan position.
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« Last Edit: September 11, 2022, 08:09:14 am by a_reader »

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Re: Woke libraries
« Reply #219 on: September 18, 2022, 09:38:45 am »
Book bans are a problem on both sides.

Quote
But conservatives are not the only censors. Governor of California Gavin Newsom inadvertently if rather hilariously made this point when he posted a picture of himself "reading some banned books to figure out" what Republican states "are so afraid of." Apparently no one told him that the stack of books in the photo included one banned in the state he leads, To Kill a Mockingbird, which was banned from California schools on the grounds that it contained racism.

Today, the Left wages its own crusade against authors, publishers, and teachers. Moms for Liberty has a Left-wing mirror image in We Need Diverse Books and Disrupt Texts, groups at the forefront of movements trying to cancel, rewrite, and otherwise censor picture books, young adult novels, and American classics taught in K-12 schools.

If it was possible to have libraries everywhere with all books freely available at community request, then I would maybe agree, but since that doesn't happen, I think it's perfectly OK for book bans to go both ways.

Maybe libraries could just have books no significant part of the population objects to, which is a better use of tax money.

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Re: Woke libraries
« Reply #220 on: September 18, 2022, 09:52:25 am »
Maybe libraries could just have books no significant part of the population objects to, which is a better use of tax money.

This will inevitably lead to complaints that nothing "interesting" is available there (from both sides)

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Re: Woke libraries
« Reply #221 on: September 18, 2022, 10:57:36 am »
...
(Silencing offensive and harmful opinions was a big cause of the right when I was younger, for example.  ...)

Parents' Music Resource Council (PMRC), probably the most successful such push, was headed by Tipper Gore, wife of Democratic Senator Al Gore.

"Shut up" has never been a reliably partisan position.

I'd go further than that. Most of the time it is a reliably bipartisan position.

For the better part of twenty years, Second Wave Feminists marched in lockstep with the Religious Right against the evils of Pornography ("Pornography is the theory, Rape is the practice"), until dissent from within Feminist sparked the Feminist Sex Wars and the coalition fractured.

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Re: Woke libraries
« Reply #222 on: September 18, 2022, 04:34:03 pm »
Quote
Maybe libraries could just have books no significant part of the population objects to, which is a better use of tax money.
I have seen the claim that this happens with K-12 textbooks, due to the fact that both Texas and California are large markets where textbook choice is made at the state level, and that the result is the production of books that don't say anything interesting, since anything interesting will offend either the right or the left.

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Re: Woke libraries
« Reply #223 on: September 19, 2022, 08:42:24 am »
Maybe libraries could just have books no significant part of the population objects to, which is a better use of tax money.

This will inevitably lead to complaints that nothing "interesting" is available there (from both sides)

Seeing parents protest certain books at school board meetings by the simple act of reading them aloud (and being silenced), maybe we could compromise to a rule that no book that you aren't willing to hear being read aloud (maybe even in the presence of minors) should be present at a library.

Nothing from your side you aren't willing to publicly expose.

Although this rule would probably be too one-sided...

Quote
As Brown ranted about the book - which is not being used in classroom instruction - board member Patsy Jordan cut her off.

'Excuse me, excuse me, we have children at home. It's live streaming, and it's really not appropriate for you to read that,' Jordan said.

'Don't you find the irony in that?' Brown shouted, at one point smacking the lectern. 'You're exactly saying exactly what I'm telling you! You're giving it to our children! I would never give this to my children!'
« Last Edit: September 19, 2022, 08:48:12 am by ana532942 »

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Re: Woke libraries
« Reply #224 on: September 19, 2022, 07:44:12 pm »
A book might be appropriate for older children but not younger children.

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Re: Woke libraries
« Reply #225 on: September 19, 2022, 08:08:30 pm »
A book might be appropriate for older children but not younger children.

At some age point you can read them anything, because they won't be able to understand it.

If you read a one-year-old the Kamasutra, he won't get anything out of it, if you don't show him the pictures.

Actually, that's another point against picture books. There should be no pornographic picture books at schools, because even children too young to actually understand erotica will get something out of picture books.

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Re: Woke libraries
« Reply #226 on: September 19, 2022, 10:08:20 pm »
A book might be appropriate for older children but not younger children.

At some age point you can read them anything, because they won't be able to understand it.

If you read a one-year-old the Kamasutra, he won't get anything out of it, if you don't show him the pictures.

Actually, that's another point against picture books. There should be no pornographic picture books at schools, because even children too young to actually understand erotica will get something out of picture books.

Yeah, though I think most kids before puberty think sex is weird and funny and kinda gross, but don't really understand why anyone finds it interesting other than that it's forbidden.  Puberty is when those circuits get powered up, at which point things change rather drastically. 
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magic9mushroom

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Re: Woke libraries
« Reply #227 on: September 24, 2022, 11:18:55 am »
If you are a legislator trying to write a law saying that those woke librarians aren't allowed to put woke books on the library shelf, or an activist petitioning your legislators to do same, be advised that you will screw this up badly.  Because at some point, you're going to have to define "woke books" in a legally rigorous fashion.  And you'll have your own librarians, the authors of all the "woke" books, and an awful lot of non-woke book authors, working against you on this.  Your list of officially banned books, or even worse the list of banned books your librarians insist you made them come up with, will include false positives that make you look like a book-burning Nazi (and you'll likely as not have overzealous supporters posting their literal book-burning parties on social media), and whatever woke agenda you're trying to suppress, they'll slip through with titles that aren't on your list.

You have the right to try this, you just really shouldn't.  Strategies that might work include A: hiring a better class of librarian, and B: trusting that 98% of K-12 students aren't going to be hanging out in the library reading those books anyway.

Hmm, I think there's some deep wisdom here. How to put it... maybe

"No set of rules a principal lays down for his agent can save him if the agent is hostile."

Applies to politicians/intelligence agencies. Applies to getting answers out of a malware-infected computer (or an evil AI). And, indeed, applies to attempts to exercise community control over institutions without like-minded people to run said institutions.

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Re: Woke libraries
« Reply #228 on: September 25, 2022, 10:43:05 pm »
If you are a legislator trying to write a law saying that those woke librarians aren't allowed to put woke books on the library shelf, or an activist petitioning your legislators to do same, be advised that you will screw this up badly.  Because at some point, you're going to have to define "woke books" in a legally rigorous fashion.  And you'll have your own librarians, the authors of all the "woke" books, and an awful lot of non-woke book authors, working against you on this.  Your list of officially banned books, or even worse the list of banned books your librarians insist you made them come up with, will include false positives that make you look like a book-burning Nazi (and you'll likely as not have overzealous supporters posting their literal book-burning parties on social media), and whatever woke agenda you're trying to suppress, they'll slip through with titles that aren't on your list.

You have the right to try this, you just really shouldn't.  Strategies that might work include A: hiring a better class of librarian, and B: trusting that 98% of K-12 students aren't going to be hanging out in the library reading those books anyway.

Hmm, I think there's some deep wisdom here. How to put it... maybe

"No set of rules a principal lays down for his agent can save him if the agent is hostile."

Well put; I'll probably steal it in the future.

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Re: Woke libraries
« Reply #229 on: September 26, 2022, 02:30:24 am »
It's true that it's very hard to write a law to do X when the people administering the law really don't want to do X.    But I think that the law can be a huge influence in the direction of X, even if the law is not invincible.

If you want a prime example of this, look at the 2nd Amendment.  It's routinely violated, twisted, and outright ignored.  But the mere fact that it exists and is fairly clear about what it demands has made gun control a lot easier to fight than if it hadn't existed, despite the fact that it's constantly ignored.

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Re: Woke libraries
« Reply #230 on: September 26, 2022, 01:53:47 pm »
"No set of rules a principal lays down for his agent can save him if the agent is hostile."

I like that. I mean, I hate that, but I think it's insightful and well-phrased.
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Re: Woke libraries
« Reply #231 on: September 26, 2022, 03:26:34 pm »
It's true that it's very hard to write a law to do X when the people administering the law really don't want to do X.    But I think that the law can be a huge influence in the direction of X, even if the law is not invincible.

If you want a prime example of this, look at the 2nd Amendment.  It's routinely violated, twisted, and outright ignored.  But the mere fact that it exists and is fairly clear about what it demands has made gun control a lot easier to fight than if it hadn't existed, despite the fact that it's constantly ignored.

The question of who are the "agents" for Second Amendment purposes is tricky, though.  State legislatures are kind of agents for the Federal Government and its Constitution, but only kind of.  The lower courts usually want nothing to do with the issue, but will take it up when they get specific guidance from above so it's hard to call them "hostile" overall.  Rank and file police officers are generally supportive of private firearms ownership, at least among the Right Sorts of People.  Police chiefs are a mixed bag depending on how much local political filtering there is on the path from rank and file to top brass.  ATF is its own thing, mostly concerned with its ego and reputation and neither of those are well aligned with its mission.

So, whole mix of agents, probably only a minority of which would be classified as "hostile".

The Nybbler

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Re: Woke libraries
« Reply #232 on: September 26, 2022, 03:42:52 pm »
The question of who are the "agents" for Second Amendment purposes is tricky, though.  State legislatures are kind of agents for the Federal Government and its Constitution, but only kind of.  The lower courts usually want nothing to do with the issue, but will take it up when they get specific guidance from above so it's hard to call them "hostile" overall.

When they took up the issue under Heller, the lower courts developed new legal standards in order to allow all the laws to stand that would have stood pre-Heller.  Which Thomas pointed out in Bruen.  That seems pretty hostile.

Quote
Rank and file police officers are generally supportive of private firearms ownership, at least among the Right Sorts of People.

Which is to say they oppose a right of private firearms ownership, since they want to determine the "Right Sorts of People".  This may make little difference to you, being the Right Sort of Person, but to those of us who are the Wrong Sort of Person, it makes a major difference.

Mr. Meeseeks

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Re: Woke libraries
« Reply #233 on: September 26, 2022, 06:09:40 pm »
It's true that it's very hard to write a law to do X when the people administering the law really don't want to do X.    But I think that the law can be a huge influence in the direction of X, even if the law is not invincible.

If you want a prime example of this, look at the 2nd Amendment.  It's routinely violated, twisted, and outright ignored.  But the mere fact that it exists and is fairly clear about what it demands has made gun control a lot easier to fight than if it hadn't existed, despite the fact that it's constantly ignored.

But it's comparatively easy to not pass a law paying the salaries of the people who won't do X.

This is the approach I favor for a lot of things. In the past, I've couched it as: "That position has been completely overrun; commence shelling."
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Aiyen

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Re: Woke libraries
« Reply #234 on: September 26, 2022, 07:27:44 pm »
It's true that it's very hard to write a law to do X when the people administering the law really don't want to do X.    But I think that the law can be a huge influence in the direction of X, even if the law is not invincible.

If you want a prime example of this, look at the 2nd Amendment.  It's routinely violated, twisted, and outright ignored.  But the mere fact that it exists and is fairly clear about what it demands has made gun control a lot easier to fight than if it hadn't existed, despite the fact that it's constantly ignored.

But it's comparatively easy to not pass a law paying the salaries of the people who won't do X.

This is the approach I favor for a lot of things. In the past, I've couched it as: "That position has been completely overrun; commence shelling."

+1
"That is why the motive game is so uninteresting. Each side can go on playing ad nauseam, but when all the mud has been flung every man’s views still remain to be considered on their merits." -C.S. Lewis

GoneAnon

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Re: Woke libraries
« Reply #235 on: November 11, 2022, 12:59:31 pm »
The Libertarian Party of Delaware found out a local public library near them was hosting drag queen story hour events.  Rather than protest or attempt to get them shut down, they simply reached out to the library to ask if they could host their own event - liberty story hour.

Their request was denied as it "wouldn't be a good fit."

https://twitter.com/LPofDelaware/status/1590692932990164993

What a weird and random mistake this library made, eh?

The Nybbler

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Re: Woke libraries
« Reply #236 on: November 11, 2022, 02:49:14 pm »
What a weird and random mistake this library made, eh?

This is second-level mistake theory, thinking that exposing the programs as the result of ideological bias will make a difference.  It won't.  Most people on Twitter claiming the programs are the result of some reasonable and unbiased process are not arguing in good faith; they merely agree with the ideology.

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Re: Woke libraries
« Reply #237 on: November 11, 2022, 06:44:01 pm »
"Liberty Story Hour" featuring "The Nybbler" sounds educationally valid to me.

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Re: Woke libraries
« Reply #238 on: November 11, 2022, 06:46:10 pm »
A cooking event sounds more thematic to me: Nybbling with the Nybbler!

(Which in turn sounds either like something from Sesame Street or something from Batman.)

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Re: Woke libraries
« Reply #239 on: November 11, 2022, 06:55:05 pm »
The Libertarian Party of Delaware found out a local public library near them was hosting drag queen story hour events.  Rather than protest or attempt to get them shut down, they simply reached out to the library to ask if they could host their own event - liberty story hour.

Their request was denied as it "wouldn't be a good fit."

https://twitter.com/LPofDelaware/status/1590692932990164993

What a weird and random mistake this library made, eh?

A request like this is the first step toward a lawsuit.

Or even if the Libertarian Party isn't interested in filing a suit like that, "look at their uneven bias" is more interesting and memorable than "look at this library hosting drag queen story hour."  And it doesn't take long to ask, and maybe there's a tiny chance they'll surprise you and agree.

clutzy

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Re: Woke libraries
« Reply #240 on: November 11, 2022, 07:26:03 pm »
The Libertarian Party of Delaware found out a local public library near them was hosting drag queen story hour events.  Rather than protest or attempt to get them shut down, they simply reached out to the library to ask if they could host their own event - liberty story hour.

Their request was denied as it "wouldn't be a good fit."

https://twitter.com/LPofDelaware/status/1590692932990164993

What a weird and random mistake this library made, eh?

A request like this is the first step toward a lawsuit.

Or even if the Libertarian Party isn't interested in filing a suit like that, "look at their uneven bias" is more interesting and memorable than "look at this library hosting drag queen story hour."  And it doesn't take long to ask, and maybe there's a tiny chance they'll surprise you and agree.

Do you really think there is meaningful equivalence between drag queen story hour and liberty story hour? Drag is an inherently sexual medium. Its like hosting stripper story hour.

Randy M

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Re: Woke libraries
« Reply #241 on: November 11, 2022, 07:36:56 pm »
The Libertarian Party of Delaware found out a local public library near them was hosting drag queen story hour events.  Rather than protest or attempt to get them shut down, they simply reached out to the library to ask if they could host their own event - liberty story hour.

Their request was denied as it "wouldn't be a good fit."

https://twitter.com/LPofDelaware/status/1590692932990164993

What a weird and random mistake this library made, eh?

A request like this is the first step toward a lawsuit.

Or even if the Libertarian Party isn't interested in filing a suit like that, "look at their uneven bias" is more interesting and memorable than "look at this library hosting drag queen story hour."  And it doesn't take long to ask, and maybe there's a tiny chance they'll surprise you and agree.

Do you really think there is meaningful equivalence between drag queen story hour and liberty story hour? Drag is an inherently sexual medium. Its like hosting stripper story hour.
The steelman of this would be that the drag dudes are reading children's stories to children, and the liberty guys are reading propaganda; objecting to the first is about identity, objecting to the second is in keeping with neutrality.

That's obviously nonsense, of course, since the medium is the message when you dress a guy up like a (parody of a) woman to play with kids.
The worst that could happen.

Aiyen

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Re: Woke libraries
« Reply #242 on: November 12, 2022, 07:08:45 pm »
A cooking event sounds more thematic to me: Nybbling with the Nybbler!

(Which in turn sounds either like something from Sesame Street or something from Batman.)

Let the Feast of a Thousand Hams commence!
"That is why the motive game is so uninteresting. Each side can go on playing ad nauseam, but when all the mud has been flung every man’s views still remain to be considered on their merits." -C.S. Lewis

GoneAnon

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Re: Woke libraries
« Reply #243 on: December 08, 2022, 04:24:54 pm »
https://nypost.com/2022/12/07/kirk-camerons-religious-story-hour-shot-down-by-public-libraries-not-interested/

Kirk Cameron is also regularly refused the opportunity to host a Christian Story Hour.

Ana

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Re: Woke libraries
« Reply #244 on: February 12, 2023, 11:45:17 am »
If I found out the librarian in my town's library was like the one highlighted by LibsofTikTok, I'd want them fired, at the minimum (with investigation into leadership of the library and the types of books in the library to follow; obviously no personal repercussions other than being fired for the librarian).